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Recurring Revenue in Ecommerce with John Roman, Ep. # 157

Recurring Revenue in Ecommerce with John Roman, Ep. # 157

by Kevin Sanderson

10 months ago

If you are wondering how, I am excited to bring on John Roman who has a successful subscription box business, and he will share what he has learned in building a community of raving fan customers.

Transcript from video:

all right if there's two things most
sellers want to get if they're selling
on Amazon and that is sales off of
Amazon and recurring revenue and so if
that sounds of interest to you you're in
the right place because my guests today
has both of those figured out so that's
why I'm super excited to bring on the
CEO of Battlbox John Roman so John
thanks for coming on maximizing
e-commerce thanks thanks for having me
yes yes so I'm excited to get into this
because it's one of those things that
I've thought about over the years is
subscriptions and so you have a pretty
elaborate subscription company that you
um if I'm catching this right yeah yeah
so we have um where the battle box group
battle boxes is our Flagship
um subscription but we have battle box
we have uh which is outdoor uh camping
survival you know could be a tent could
be a knife or a fire starter
um and then we also have carnivore club
which is monthly charcuterie so
artisanal Meats cured to think like a
salami or prosciutto
um and then we also have Wanlow which is
a children's experience subscription so
the goal being to get kids kind of off
the screens a little bit I'm not gonna
be able to get kids fully off screens
these days but if we can you know get
them outside a little bit like maybe
when we were kids kids I think a lot of
parents connect with that so those are
our main main three and yeah they're all
subscription Centric subscription first
got it got it so just for the sake of
what the very simple question what is a
so a subscription is is is a reoccurring
um recurring billing so in in our you
know you'll see different versions of it
Amazon you know made the Subscribe and
save famous
um and they really led the pack there
where you know you're ordering this
replenishable product and agree to a
frequency of every 30 days or every six
weeks what have you and there's
typically a discount associated with it
um we're and then there's other
subscriptions right there's
subscriptions that we've had forever
remember when
um decades ago when I used to fill out
the uh Columbia House mailer side yes my
12 free CDs yes CDs for a dollar right
or VHS thirty dollars for a CD every
month after that yeah but then the
subscription renews and it's like 89 you
only get two now all right so we've had
subscriptions forever so there's there's
that type there's membership which you
know you're receiving some kind of
service there's obviously streaming
subscriptions that we all use every day
um and then us which is uh it's a little
bit non-traditional which is simply
um this it's a surprise it's mystery
um you don't know what you're getting
with with any of our Brands
um we treat it almost in that
um Supreme model where you know
everybody finds out at the same time
this is the drop we you know are very
strategic we're our main facility is in
Atlanta Georgia so we start shipping
West Coast and then we go across that
way everybody gets it delivered around
the same couple of days okay um but it's
a complete mystery so people are
trusting us to
hopefully send them something good since
they're giving us a lot of money for it
okay got it got it so and this is one of
those things where like unlike subscribe
and Save which is generally like if you
have a coffee you like or they just send
it to you every month or Whatever
frequency it's the same product over and
over again this is
you're sending them something different
that they won't know about until they
yeah so it's always it's always
different uh battle box we launched it
in 2015 and um
you know at this point we're we're
getting close to we're in the in the mid
90s now of different boxes we call our
boxes with battlbox missions
um so we're getting close to Mission
100. we'll hit it oh well it'll you know
early middle part of next year and uh we
don't repeat
repeat items
um which brings a whole nother
you know uh procurement is definitely a
multi-person multi-team
um job which you know subscribe and say
you don't have to worry about that as
much that's I would think honestly if
you can if you have a replenishable
um subscribe and save is a much easier
um barrier and arguably might have
better conversion rate might have more
success okay we're always think we're
thinking now of like how we can get more
in replenishable or more same item
um just because it makes not for our
core offering but for additional
offerings got it all right well let's go
back in time before we start diving
deeper into all these uh strategies and
uh philosophies with it
um but let's go back to 2015. that was
about the time I got started in
e-commerce okay I decided to go all in
on figuring out Amazon
you went all in the description model
what made you decide to go this route
um so so the idea the concept of it is
is interesting so 2015 is was when I
first dipped my toes in e-commerce
um for the previous decade I was
um managing and starting and Building
Sales teams in the B2B space
um so telecommunications and software as
a service
and I was investing in companies that
that were um in hitting my desk so to
speak just through my network and
um my uh business partner not no longer
but but was my business partner for for
six years
um uh Daniel he came up with this idea
his wife was getting a Birchbox in the
in the mail which is a female
subscription box
makeup uh eyeliner kind of like beauty
um they actually are I think following
bankruptcy this month
um which is which is crazy because they
they had a over a billion dollar
valuation at one point
but she saw her getting this this box
and he saw this excitement level and uh
he was like man I want a box for myself
I want to I want to when I'm seeing her
experience I want to experience too went
online he's a Outdoorsman and he
couldn't find anything
and then um
said okay well if I can't find it I I
want to create it
um I got involved uh two weeks after
and then my whole my plan from the
beginning was just investment and
limited capacity
um in the business just kind of some
some advisement a couple hours a week
nothing uh too insane but then you know
we did four and a half million our first
um so
2016 year two in the beginning we had a
run rate of eight figures and I said
yeah I have a mortgage I have all these
things responsibility I'm gonna tell my
wife that I'm gonna take this this
career that I'm building and jumping
into Ecom something I only know a year
about and
we did it was scary but you got it so so
you decided to make the poll or the the
um you weren't necessarily the original
starter of it but you were the one
basically helping ramp it up
yeah so there were there were um four of
us that were the the technical
um and um when I came in in 2016
um my first task was getting
um buying out one of the fourth Partners
so it became three and the uh three of
us Daniel Patrick and myself we we ran
the business up until
um a little over a year ago when Daniel
stepped down
got it so basically you
you started off in an advisory role then
you said I'm going to go all in on this
bought out another one of the
co-founders and then even scaling it
since so okay help me understand since I
I probably am going to ask a lot more
basic questions than someone else in the
I'm curious about this
um and I know a lot of people my
audience will be curious about this too
because you know on Amazon
you hope that someone comes back and
buys your product because you know they
just go to their manage orders and like
I'll just buy that again or maybe they
do subscribe and say if your product
lends itself to that but
how do you
how do you Market this just to even get
started so like how do you acquire a
um so it was a great question so on the
funny thing we can get into this later
on on Amazon we actually sell one-time
products but we also sell our
um on on their on there as well
um back to your question everywhere so
our our channels are
um everything you know there's a there's
a heavy heavy focus on social so for us
um meta Facebook Instagram uh Google
Google search is is huge um YouTube is
very large Tick Tock is is our largest
channel which you know a year ago it
wasn't but we've had to kind of shift
the focus on this this this content
um but then everything from podcasts
um to a connected TV to like you know
ads on Hulu everything we've we've tried
we've tried traditional television as
well that's really tough to track oh I
can imagine but it's it's everything so
and even on the Amazon side we're
running Amazon ads on both our
subscription product and our and our
one-time products
okay now I'm curious like on Amazon how
do you sell the subscription like
sure so buying the subscript is making
it subscribe and save to get
this no so so we were in so we've been
in it for a few years now
um we were part of the beta with them so
it's it's called um Amazon subscribe and
it's um it's a subscription box offering
that Amazon has Amazon has about
um I think maybe 300 or so
um subscription boxes like like us
um in the program and
um it functions exactly like it's not it
expectations are clear it's a different
box each month we have the same offering
all four tiers so our our pricing we
have four different options
um but it doesn't function as a
subscribe and save it functions as a
subscription to a service
got it so
are you fulfilling this or are you
sending it to a fulfillment center in
Navy yeah so so for traditional uh
one-time sales you know we we do FBA
that's that's what we want to do
the subscription box piece is that is
fbm um okay no choice in the matter uh
we would much much rather do FBA I think
the initial plan when when we were
launching the beta was that you know a
year from now we hope to figure it out
um to get into FBA but it's fbm so we
get we get an export out of there and
have to have to fulfill it each month
okay got it got it so
so I didn't even know Amazon had that
program so that that's interesting is
that something that's even available to
people nowadays or is that
uh is that program closed
um I think it I believe it's actually
still still available
um we we typically have quarterly calls
with them about the program but it's
definitely lost some momentum
um it had some more momentum um in in
previous years I'm not sure if maybe
um some of the the jobs I I would
imagine that might be an area that you
know might not fare well as well as
others I think anything that isn't
proven and isn't isn't like a big needle
mover like Alexa technology right is one
of the places that's super affected by
the layoffs
um so I'm not sure we probably need to
touch base with him because we haven't
chatted with him since
um the layoffs oh gotcha so maybe your
rep's not there anymore yeah I'm
confident that some of them are going to
be there because it's a pretty talented
team no I I would imagine and I would
imagine Amazon probably will not scrap
it totally because if they have 300
companies working there that's probably
nowhere near you know some of their
other programs but that's probably
generating a decent amount of revenue
for them yeah it's funny it's when we
got put in the program it was one of
those things that um when you go just to and you go all the way to the
bottom of their footer Amazon has the
most insane footer you'll ever see they
have all their programs that are active
there and it's it's insane there's all
kinds of programs that you're like what
is Box Office Mojo
um and it that's just the first I'm
looking at it right now yeah it's crazy
all the things that they have
but yeah so I don't think it's going
anywhere because there are so many
merchants in it okay got it so so it's
semi-successful but they might not be
putting a lot of effort behind uh
scaling it for now yeah so I just looked
it's if you go to and you go
to the footer we're actually bottom
right it says Amazon subscription boxes
okay so Amazon subscription boxes and
you're part of that program now just to
help kind of paint the picture what
percentage of your sales are Amazon
versus non-amazon for subscription boxes
so um for for subscription boxes and
four one time it's both about the same
it's it's uh about a half a percent
which oh got half a percent of your
total sales yeah most of your sales are
not through this Amazon program hence
why you're not on the phone all the time
with your Amazon right yeah yeah
so you know the vast majority of so the
vast majority of our business is the
subscription we're about 90 of our
revenue is subscription Revenue 10 is is
Marketplace one time but um when you
when you look at different
um sales channels the our website the
direct to Consumer
um through us through a Shopify site
that is that is the core Core Business
now is to me that means there's major
opportunity for us on on the Amazon side
um you know you know Amazon better than
I do
um when you have a product that has a
nice sales velocity and you're moving
through it the one thing you cannot do
is run out of it
um and the way we're ordering for the
subscription box we're ordering maybe a
couple thousand extra of a skew we think
is going to do well but this is a
manufactured run so by the time we're
able to spot that it has nice sales
velocity and get more and and get a
manufacturer and get it over to us at
the price point we need
it's it's been sold out momentum lost so
we part of our Focus next year is
probably doing a better job on that and
trying to see how we can grow the Amazon
business yeah that's a uh that that's
the pain point of a lot of people myself
included is you run out of stock and
sometimes getting back to where you were
is hard if not possible yeah
um so yeah I totally understand that
pain point now
one question is how how would if someone
came to you and said hey this sounds
interesting how would you recommend to
them or what would you recommend they do
to figure out like okay what Niche do
you even go after like do they take
their existing private label product and
try to incorporate it or
yeah I think just start from scratch on
this yeah I think I think the path path
of least resistance is to test a
subscription element of your of your
current business right for a lot of
businesses a lot of Brands it's probably
a lot easier than others
um but if you have any sort of way to
create a subscription
um in some sort of cadence of of you
know reoccurring billing I I think you
try to take your existing brand and you
do some testing and you try to see if
you can find something there
um I think you can probably lean on some
of your data of you know repeat
customers like how how often are they
um yeah I know with Amazon specifically
it's it's a little bit of a challenge
sometimes because of you know Amazon
maintaining the customer data but
um yeah if you can get any any sort of
indicators of how often people are
ordering your products overall I think
they can probably help create it like an
infrastructure to know okay well we have
you know our perfect customers ordering
something from us every 60 days or every
90 days maybe we're setting we need to
set up a quarterly or a bi-monthly
um subscription and offer some sort of
cost savings to to in entice it
so if you have a product that lends
itself to a
recurring purchase like if you have a
can opener or a three press hole punch
like I'm looking at my desk most likely
people are not going to buy this over
and over again right but if you have
something that does lend itself like a
supplements or something that's
consumable yeah well I mean you're
you're looking at the hole puncher and
um I the other thing I think you said
was an office supply too right so the
first first thing I'm thinking of is
okay so that's what you're selling then
let's look at let's look at what the
replenishable subscriptions are right
paper clips
um okay pens
um you know maybe maybe you start
thinking while it's so it's still on
brand still part of your typical Blue
House of what you would be expected to
sell and if you can find the reoccurring
got it would you recommend folks go the
route of they know what they're getting
recurrence or it's easy this is what you
get it's easier so it's easier to to
not do the surprise piece
um the surprise piece is definitely has
a lot more
um challenges and and Logistics you have
to figure out
but at the same level and it doesn't
convert at the same rate that a
replenishable non-surprise does
um but the the reason we do it is we're
able to
um and we also kind of lean very heavily
on content and community building and
really focusing on the brand
um but because of that we we get these
battle boxers that are absolute you know
ambassadors of the brand they they love
it just as much as we do
so you get this you get some passion
um in community building with it which
which ultimately lead to a higher LTV
um and and less churn lifetime value
okay correct sorry no no that's fine and
so for those who aren't familiar can you
describe what churn means
sure so so part of of the issue of
subscriptions is that yes you get the
subscriber and that's awesome but you're
gonna churn churn a percentage every
every month of of your you know
scheduled active subscribers that
typically would be Billing at Whatever
frequency you had them agree to they
agreed to and you know for the Subscribe
subscription box mystery piece a little
niche of of of e-commerce you're
typically looking at a 16 to 18 monthly
churn so you do some quick math on that
you are turning through customers
um we're a little bit fortunate we're
we're a little bit closer to ten percent
okay um which which is good which is
which is great
um you start getting on more of the
non-mystery piece where it's a
replenishable or something of that
nature and it's you know where we're at
right now while it's a home run for
mystery it's probably be expected for a
replenishable churn rate
um so
go ahead no no so just quick math so if
it's let's say 16 18 you're looking at
the average customer sticks around for
five six months and a ten percent churn
rate the average customer is sticking
around for about 10 months yeah right so
monthly yeah it's times so no it's a
it's not as a little straightforward is
that because they're people with
different different parts of their life
cycle sure um so like for us example so
our average customer
um sticks around seven months on average
um but we have a very large
um spike in the in the between the
fourth and the fifth box the fourth and
the fifth renewal where we see a a
larger than than normal increase just in
general for the life cycle when you say
increase in like they're more likely to
stick around if they've been around for
four months a week four months we see we
see larger fell uh fall okay after that
fourth box now our average seven but
with that larger fourth box fall after a
fourth box fall out well what we see is
you know no matter where you fall out
it's being calculated in that months
that month's sure that the current churn
um so that 12 or 18 we're losing it
might be you know 20 of that group might
be this month and 10 might have been 12
months in so it's up you have to where
we go by cohort data to to have a better
understanding it and another thing it's
super complicated you're having a look
at data in all these different ways to
um you know our biggest Med one of the
our North Star metrics is lifetime value
um which is yeah I mentioned earlier how
much revenue is this customer going to
generate on average
because of that we can have you know we
know what our cogs are on average and we
know what our our margin should be so
then we know okay if we can get X
you know if we can get a customer for X
we know that's super profitable
um so we're oftentimes scaling and
advertising acquiring customers what
could be a loss in the first month but
we know that month two they're going to
be profitable so it's just a different
way to for us to look at it we're not
um as focused on like return on ad spend
so to speak because we have such
forecastable and expected Revenue data
when someone comes in got it so it's
probably more of the cost to acquire the
customer than it is like row as or we
would oftentimes think of a cost just
the inverse but right okay got it so
um how how do you bring them in so to
speak at an ad are you doing one of
these like free plus shipping are you
selling them a one-off product and then
in the back end you're trying to sell
them into this were you going straight
for the here's the subscription
um all all of the above we typically
yeah we typically in ads um lead with
um 2022 has been has been a challenging
year just in general I think for
um in e-commerce overall we've had to
get a little bit more aggressive with
um initially off the Jump typically we
would run ads that were just
informational about the subscription get
them into our funnel and you know as
they move through the final one engage
with ads we might offer a discount
um off their first box
um but now we're offering
free a free tent with your subscription
or something something aggressive to to
onboard them
um but it's it's typical ads we we also
really focus on a lot of content that is
not there's there's no hidden agenda
it's not
um trying to get them to subscribe it's
just making them aware of our brand
um we'll do tick tocks that we know
we're not dancing in our tick tocks
we're we're discussing our products and
gear and what we do
um but it's just to get them in the
ecosystem and understand us and you know
some of those those those audience
members will actually see oh there could
be some value in the subscription
um so something I didn't hit on that I
probably should have
um while it's a mystery at the end of
the day the the value that you're gonna
get in those items
if you Source them independently is much
greater than what you would have spent
so so our 170 a month box which is it's
our most popular
um about 45 of our base is actually in
that that box we charge shipping for it
um because these are bigger than you
know this isn't uh first class under a
pound male it could be a 67 pound box
okay um and and with that
you know if they they pay call it 200
after sales after tax shipping
everything you're probably going to get
maybe 350 dollars worth of stuff if you
try to Source it on your own so even
though it's a mystery you might not like
one of the seven products in the box but
you're probably still gonna come out
ahead for the products you do like and
then you can gift that or I mean I guess
technically you could sell yourself
um on eBay or we have a bunch of buy
sell trade groups
so there's
definitely valued there even though it
is Mystery got it got it now are you
sourcing from the same
companies over and over again are you
constantly looking for new suppliers
I wish we were because that would be a
lot easier
um and would allow us to you know build
relationships better with these
manufacturers so to yes and no we really
our customers don't want to see the same
they don't want to see the same product
they don't want to see the same brand
too often so the most typically in a
we'll occasionally maybe maybe showcase
a brand three times in a year
um but those products are all vastly
different so that that's like best case
scenario for repetitiveness of a brand
but only in a perfect scenario where
there are skus and and options are so
diverse that we can do that typically
it's a it's a one and done for a lot of
Brands which makes it difficult for us
because we're constantly having to
Source new
um instead of instead of building those
got it got it but you're basically going
to this uh suppliers the manufacturers
the wholesalers whoever and saying hey
we're gonna buy
x amount how far out are you having to
Source this because you know every month
you have something so yeah it's this is
and so this is a nightmare uh so we're
having no we're having to
um on the conservative side we can
sometimes get away with maybe 180 days
okay um lead time
um but typically we're we're getting
we're we're north of that we're greater
than that
um which is a challenge because
um forecasting that far out is is
um and it's typically one of those
things you give them the purchase order
this company it's some it's definitely a
manufactured run
um so if we're wrong in the forecast and
need to bring it back some that's
typically not a fun conversation or one
that's even on the table and the same
for Hayward we under shot it we need
more they don't have the allocation you
know they're dealing with the
manufacturer themselves typically it's
not them directly
um so it's it's a it's a challenge and
causes a huge cash flow issue as well
constantly because
for having to pay uh for this product
when we're ourselves not going to be
even billing for it in in three four
months sometimes got it just
mechanically when do you Bill for it
versus when the customer receives it
sure so we we always
um so when you when you sign up we
charge you immediately we ship you your
first box right away
um after that you fall into uh our
traditional Cadence which is on the 15th
your build okay and then we're shipping
it to you the beginning of the following
month we ship everybody everybody their
um the beginning of the following month
got it so you you charge their card on
the 15th and then the around the first
it goes out correct okay got it got it
got it okay so this is interesting
because I could see your conundrum there
of you have to really
hope your turn is consistent
or your Acquisitions are consistent too
on both sides of that equation right so
kind of thread that needle of having the
right amount of product because you've
promised everybody and I'm assuming
everyone gets the same product that you
ever have to say okay these 400 people
are getting something different
so in in seven years we haven't there's
always the fear there's there's always
the fear um typically we try to we try
to be a little conservative inside with
caution so if we think the number is X
we'll typically build a little bit extra
in because we have Avenues and ways to
move it
um one you know the products I'll look
hard on our on our site at greater
um and and then there's
we we ship to Canada and Canada because
of the time it takes to get the product
to up to Toronto out of our we have an
office of Charter out of Toronto shipped
locally it it's quite a processor
they're behind a month too which gives
us another ability to move additional
um we have uh uh in cart upsell to move
inventory so we have ways to move the
excess inventory
um so we definitely always side with
caution but this month for example we
were cutting it very very close
got it got it so you're
if you go over you do have ways of
moving that it's more you can't go under
you can't go under because you've
promised everyone
um because and if you have this
community I'm sure they're probably
comparing with each other hey this is
what I got especially if you're having
to yeah I'm the East Coast versus West
Coast right and it's coming with with a
with a booklet that's you know typically
a six seven page booklet full color
really nice quality showcasing all the
items what they are how to use um use
um specs if you will so there's no room
room for air
um hey it says this because you gave me
some yeah and we're and we're we're
having to print that that book and
create that book obviously before
we're even
right because that's not into the box so
there's a delay there because you have
to create the content then have it
printed do you print that in-house or do
you have a a third party news so we have
a we have a third party we have um we
have we have two different vendors for
we have a rather large vendor
um and with them it takes a little bit
more time better pricing
um but the lead time is there then we
have a local vendor that we have a
relationship where we don't use them
often but when we do it's it's known hey
something changed we need you know we
need 10 000 of these can we pick them up
later today oh gotcha gotcha and luckily
we have both now but because of that
they're substantially without the same
day they're still substantially more
sure but we have two different vendors
depending on if everything is going to
plan or are we because because to your
point we might
a product was supposed to be here
typically four weeks before we need to
ship it okay but then things happen and
we'll have to call audibles and we'll
say okay well we have we have this
product is very similar on the shelf for
a future month and we don't think this
product's going to get in time so let's
pull this one in we'll push that one out
um change all the creatives and let's go
and and we'll have to print more
um yeah it's not fun definitely a
replenishable non-mystery
subscribe and save is definitely the
path of least resistance and and so much
so that like we we're not changing our
core business but we were really focused
next year on trying to find some
subscribe and save uh model for our
space both on our site and and Amazon
got it so the the way to go about this
really if I'm understanding this is
there's a lot of complexity in a mystery
box especially if it has a community and
content that's going with it so the path
of least resistance if someone's
listening to this thing I'd like to kind
of go down this path uh it sounds
interesting because it is nice I'm sure
knowing this is we can forecast what our
sales are going to be
and have some level of accuracy compared
to if you just have a Shopify store and
you're hoping for SEO traffic yeah that
that that's there's two two reasons it's
so attractive and that that's one and
um just the consistency and and ability
to forecast
um and be right
um the flip side is if you ever have a
negative strategy re a reoccurring
Revenue model is is always going to
um a better valuation
got it got it okay so it also could help
you with multiples and valuations down
the road if somebody precisely exiting
um any other kind of closing advice to
somebody thinking about getting into
this other than maybe mystery is uh
would be Varsity start on JV yeah yeah I
would I I think that's that's probably
spot on the on on comparing it yet start
with it start on JV start with the rep
with a subscribe and say model and if
you see success with it I think
that means that okay let's look at
mystery let's look at bigger bigger
other advice is
it's we have subscriptions all all in
our life right we've we've used
subscriptions for for all kind for
everything I I think um it's it's such
an opportunity if you if you're if you
don't have one
um there's just no downside to trying to
take a shot and figure it and figuring
it out because reoccurring Revenue makes
your life so much easier yeah and even
if you started it out and you had 20
well you're gonna figure it out it all
goes back to the man in the arena is the
one you know who figures it out as
opposed to or woman in the arena
um he's going to figure it out more than
the person who's you know dreaming and
hoping about it and so yeah like
anything in business there's uh
there's a bias towards action so if you
have the bias towards action you're more
likely to succeed so this is this is
interesting so if somebody wanted to
follow you or learn more where would
they go John
um so I'm not good at Twitter but I am
on LinkedIn I uh I I try to post
a couple times a month with typically
just what we're kind of going through
um what we're focused on uh the mistakes
we're making with stuff and and our
learnings from it to try to save others
from making the many mistakes that we
have made along the journey
um and then I also have a Blog called which is again I'm just
kind of documenting
um things we're doing so like one of our
big initiatives
um over the past year has been uh
turning our customer service department
into a profit Center uh which is kind of
a very unusual thing to hear
um since you know CS departments
typically are just spend the money right
and uh so like I document how we're
doing that how we looked at the problem
how we solved for it what worked what
didn't work okay so it's a kind of it's
a lot of a lot of content like that okay
great well I definitely recommend folks
check that out so we'll have a a link uh
it'll be in the description below if
you're watching on YouTube and if you're
are listening to the audio version will
be in the show notes both go to as well as John Roman's
LinkedIn page so I appreciate this John
this is uh has my eyes open and thinking
about a few things I might potentially
do with something like this and like
anything it just kind of get started no
I love it Kevin thanks for having me and
and yeah we can chat offline if it can
give give some some feedback and ideas
awesome cool I appreciate it thanks yeah
thank you so much it was great meeting