Welcome to another exciting episode of Own Your Commerce! Joining our Host, Jay Myers, Co-Founder of Bold Commerce, is John Roman, the CEO of BattlBox, one of the most beloved subscription brands in the market. John's journey is nothing short of inspiring, and he's here to share his story with all of us.
Transcript from video:
0:02 perhaps the most memorable encounter I've had with anyone
0:08 welcome to the owner Commerce podcast where leading experts Brands and innovators reveal strategies for
0:14 e-commerce growth I'm your host Jay Myers and this show is brought to you by bold Commerce
0:21 hey everyone I am so excited today to have John Roman here with me he's the
0:27 CEO of Battlbox which is honestly one of the most loved subscription Brands
0:32 um ever they're uh they recently um they recently were acquired which we're going to talk a little bit about
0:39 um it's not just battle box though it's carnivore club and they've got a few other other brands in there they've
0:44 launched a series on Netflix which we'll dive into a little bit he's really had an amazing journey uh he's also honestly
0:50 one of the nicest people you'll ever meet I just got to know him recently one of those people that really just likes
0:56 to help others and share information and while that's that's really why I was excited to get to get him on our show
1:02 John thank you so much for coming on today thanks for having me Jay I'm excited to be here so speaking of your
1:07 Netflix series I actually um I didn't know that it you had it recently and I I was uh doing a little
1:13 bit of Googling today I watched I just started watching it it's it's awesome like I I I just watched uh episode two
1:21 to with the glass breaking tools and it's funny because the the tool okay so
1:27 the the series is called Southern survival definitely everyone listening should check it out it is it's kind of
1:33 um a blend between um yeah it's like MythBusters with a
1:38 little bit of a Duck Dynasty Flair to it it's got It's uh I think that that's
1:43 that's literally how I how I describe it to people it's it's Mythbusters oh okay okay I wasn't sure if you'd be offended
1:49 if I say awesome I love it and that maybe that's why I like it so much I don't know but uh that glass piece so
1:56 for breaking the car glass the little Hammer I actually and the one that broke when when they were trying it on the
2:01 window and fell apart and they're like this is crap I have one of those in my truck so I'm gonna throw throw that out
2:07 right away and uh well maybe I should find whatever battle boxes uh that one's
2:12 in uh shoot me your address and uh I'll I'll send you one of them okay because uh because the one I have
2:18 is the is the garbage one I'll tell you that right now um man it was it was a little bit of a
2:24 process so we so Brandon Curran um who is the is the face of our brand
2:30 he's the one in all the videos so he um came on board about a month
2:36 after we started uh but I apologize about a year after we started and then
2:43 let me backtrack and do some some math okay so the show area
2:48 which meant we aired it which we shot it in 2019. okay so in late 2017
2:56 the um High Noon entertainment uh production house uh Cake Boss and
3:05 fixer-upper's in their caps of uh shows they've they've done they they reached out wanted to jump on
3:13 a call talk through the the concept the idea they they saw Brandon's videos and they
3:19 were just like us a big fan of Brandon so they wanted to figure out if there was anything there for a show so we jump
3:27 on with them they had um kind of received a green light to uh to shoot
3:33 some Sizzle Sizzle reels which I guess is the thing that comes before a pilot
3:41 um so you know Netflix is kind of change change the game with you know full
3:47 seasons and and really change the way all that behave you know back years ago
3:52 you used to see a pilot on TV and sometimes that's all you saw because they hadn't shot the last
3:59 so the the concept was we're gonna We want to shoot the sizzle reel and gets
4:05 get money to shoot a pilot and uh the
4:10 conversations they were having were with History Channel at the time so they came
4:16 um they shot shot a Sizzle reel I was I was actually in the the scissor reel I
4:22 ended up not being in the show for for a bunch of reasons but
4:28 did the scissors just not yeah just not my thing um
4:33 their concept of my character uh was possibly going to cause internal
4:41 um issues which is okay we're in a good idea worth it so
4:47 they they shot that and then put it in the hands of History Channel and History Channel sat on it for like
4:54 six seven months and finally finally just said no
5:00 and uh so we were a little like you know we were so excited about it and
5:05 kind of let down at that moment but they High Noon was like look we're gonna talk to other people we really like this we
5:12 think this has has legs on it so they they start talking a Discovery Channel and we're excited again and Discovery
5:19 Channels reviewing it and they sit on it for six seven months and uh they say
5:25 they say no so at this point we're at the end of 2018 going into 2019
5:34 and uh we touch base with I noon so it's been over a year at this point uh and
5:40 they're like hey we're going to set up some meetings this month we're gonna meet with Walmart uh for Walmart
5:46 streaming service which not sure if they're even doing it anymore I know they were trying
5:52 um I can't remember the name of it if it does exist but they really remember that too I don't think they are yeah they
5:58 might have just voted I'm not sure honestly if if it's still around I feel bad because clearly they're failing at
6:05 it um but so they're gonna meet with Walmart and they're going to meet with Netflix
6:12 and you know they're gonna pitch both of them and we're excited again the uh from
6:19 what I understand the meeting with with Walmart went well then they meet with Netflix and they basically leave the
6:26 Netflix meeting and it's it's it's a green light Netflix and
6:32 Netflix doesn't play that here's some money for a pilot uh they said okay we'll we'll do a season uh we want you
6:40 know the rights to Seven Seasons and we let's go um and we're like wow okay and then
6:47 honestly within a few weeks we had a a giant contract like 60 70 pages from
6:54 them that uh was was the agreement we were like oh I
7:00 guess we have to find like an entertainment lawyer at this point so we
7:05 uh we found we found an entertainment lawyer that came recommended here in Atlanta
7:11 and uh we took it to them they redlined it we had more calls we redlined more
7:16 stuff and uh we send it over to Netflix all proud that we got this
7:22 you know through this document and they they replied and said oh well sorry for
7:28 you know any misunderstanding or or uh improperly set expectations
7:34 there is no redlining process this is the agreement sit out okay
7:40 um what what were some of the things that you didn't feel comfortable with like or like this is a standard
7:46 agreement they sent to every content
7:51 yeah it's really geared towards the the parts that we weren't super comfortable with were the fact that we were just
7:59 clearly viewed as talent and at the end of the day we are a business and you know we are a business first even we
8:06 might lead with content as a company but at the end of the day we're a business and uh it was just very very Talent
8:15 driven you know we're if we if if we have an event for marketing that you need to come to
8:21 um we'll give you 48-hour notice um to figure it out and at the end of
8:28 the day we have Mission critical things in the business that have to take precedent over anything else so it was a
8:35 it was just a little bit of a not super comfortable only being treated as talent and uh to foreshadow some they they
8:44 wouldn't ever even talk to me because I wasn't on the show um so Daniel Daniel my uh
8:51 old business partner that you know found came up with the idea of uh he he would
8:58 literally like Ford or they they'd send an email saying hey you know let's meet
9:04 Tuesday at four and he'd reply back to it and like copy me in and copy Patrick or uh other partner and be like you know
9:11 looping in looping in the guys and they'd reply back and remove us
9:17 um it was very it was just interesting we were we just treated we were talent and that's yep because they're so large
9:25 like the people that would understand you know that we're a business as well just weren't a part of a part of the
9:32 conversation so uh signed it they they came we filmed uh
9:40 second half of 2019 was filming they came back in January of 2020 to uh get
9:47 some additional shots uh just to you know close up some continuity for the
9:53 episodes um then radio silence we know nothing at all
9:58 February March April hear nothing and then at the end of April Netflix reached
10:05 out and said hey we're going to um release this July 4th weekend
10:11 and it's called Southern survival and um
10:17 you can't talk about it um we're gonna give you some information two weeks out
10:22 uh that you can start promoting it a bunch of sizzles a bunch of teaser
10:27 teaser videos and teacher creatives so we're like Okay
10:33 um and then we so you know we're mid pandemic so
10:39 we're super excited yeah this this is a great this is great timing for you know
10:44 outdoor and survival gear this is perfect and then the reality of
10:51 um the the George Floyd situation incidentally yeah and and all
10:59 of a sudden even though we were in a pandemic there was um you know protests and
11:07 you know all of a sudden the title Southern survival while completely innocent is yeah is is maybe not not the
11:15 right um you know extremely uh very patriotic
11:21 uh show so then we went through this phase of like well what do we do and you
11:27 know at this point we had been given the green light of Southern survival so we're manufacturing Southern survival
11:33 gear we're going all in uh with with our cash and our profit and just rolling it
11:38 in to be ready for this and not being able to you know forecast too intelligently because nobody's ever
11:47 had a yes there's being duck dynasties and shows like that that were episodic uh an
11:55 episode a week a slow build um not this whole full season you can
12:00 watch it all right away so a a company with a show
12:06 at a full where you where it all drops at once like it there's there's no use case or case study on what type of
12:14 uplift to expect um how much product we should we should order what's going to be the conversion
12:20 rate on traffic we're just we're making educated guesses um and so we had manufactured all this
12:26 stuff at this point that has Southern survival written on it so we're just in
12:33 a bad spot like what do we do like if if we have to change the name you know obviously we'll change the name it's not
12:38 even our choice but like what do we do about all this product um Netflix you're gonna you're gonna buy
12:45 it from us and uh yeah how does the mechanics of that work
12:50 sorry this might be my like a silly question but I so Netflix acquires
12:55 content they're they it's a like it's a product they by the rights to the content
13:04 you're you produced it or did Netflix produce it um so high noon High Noon entertainment
13:10 produced it the high okay so now they have the rights to to it for
13:15 you said seven years yeah correct but but you're but do you
13:21 have creative control for like the next seasons and and
13:26 products or is it like they control the General um theme you've control of the products
13:34 that are tested and yeah so yeah they they for southern
13:39 survival they they have they're they're just the decision maker they're the authority
13:45 um and we we don't we don't have rights so if they wanted to make a bunch of
13:52 um you know shirts with like photos from the show or something like that like that's that's them
13:59 um anything we have to do we would have to get approval so like us running
14:04 running videos from um you know parts of parts of the show
14:10 like we had to get go and you know send that over to them to Netflix for approval it's very much theirs and we're
14:17 just we're just Talent at the end of the day but do you say you control the products
14:23 that are tested on the show yeah so they they leaned on us for you know what these what what should what
14:29 should the products be right yeah um and then they would build build around that they had some ideas it is it is TV so
14:37 some of the items like the glass breaker stuff 100 but like some of the items are
14:43 items that would never make their way in a battle box for for typically for for
14:48 Price reasons right we're also not yeah actually flipping flipping trucks
14:54 um made for made for TV I I the lines are getting like as I as I
15:02 was watching it and there's other shows too but it's it's kind of still early but this like the the blurring between
15:08 e-commerce and and media um you know I I when I as I'm watching
15:14 it I'm thinking like how long is it gonna be until Netflix you know allows purchasing within their player to some
15:22 capacity um and maybe that's a channel just like just like Google shopping or Facebook shopping maybe it's Netflix shopping
15:28 maybe and then that's part of the rights that you know you have the rights to be the only supplier or it becomes a
15:35 bidding process like any thoughts on that yeah it's it's it's the future
15:41 um and you're right the the blurring is is just it's it's happening and it's
15:47 it's really it's kind of cool to see it's so what like one of my hot buttons and things
15:53 that you know you always ask like what do you what are you losing sleepover what can't you stop thinking about it's
15:59 it's this you know I I pride that we really truly Battlbox leads with these
16:07 two pillars right and it's content and community and the content is exactly what it
16:13 sounds like you know we're at this point doing two tick tocks a day a reels a
16:18 YouTube shorts um obviously all The Usual Suspects like Facebook and Instagram with traditional
16:25 posts but you know we're content content content uh a few long forms a month that
16:31 you know typically just go to YouTube uh Facebook too oh you know content content
16:36 content and then with that though comes the community piece and you know for Community for us it's
16:43 really two parts there's the the customer Community which you know we
16:48 have the members only Group which you know I was in there on Friday like interacting and talking and asking what
16:55 all of our customers were doing this next week or the weekend so there's that part but then there's just this this
17:00 other community we've built on Tick Tock where it's you see a lot of the same people just commenting and asking
17:07 questions and you know the whole ecosystem of community is is so
17:13 important and it's it's it's Paramount and it's it's the reason we're successful but
17:21 we were a business first right and then what you're seeing now with you know the
17:27 nelk boys and and Mr Beast um they built the content and community
17:33 and now they're building the businesses which is is kind of crazy I mean Mr
17:40 Beast launch launches a chocolate bar and uh because of his content and the
17:47 community he's built he's all of a sudden Nationwide in Walmart immediately yeah right it's something
17:54 that a traditional Merchant um would dream of and would have to go through all these hoops and you know you
18:02 look at uh milk boys with their full send podcast and now they've they've built this community and and somehow
18:08 they've launched happy Dad which is uh um the I guess uh not White Cloud but
18:16 whatever they're called the yeah yeah alcoholics bites spritzer yeah yeah okay
18:23 um but it's it's really really cool um that they're that they're doing it and they're doing it the reverse way
18:29 that we did but I think they're doing the reverse way for the same reason that
18:34 that you just stated like e-commerce and media and Commerce in general are all
18:40 just blending together and yeah I'm shocked Netflix hasn't launched
18:45 some sort of shopping right you look at YouTube announced um we're in there uh we had
18:52 this YouTube Shopify integration where um we can go on YouTube live now and do
18:59 live shopping um you're not you're not giving Netflix
19:06 there's no royalties you owe them for anyone that purchases one of those glass Breakers
19:11 from your store that's that's your own that's your own business with our product right and a lot of this
19:17 stuff we're not even we're not even the um you know we didn't make it right it's not art products right it's it's a
19:23 vendor that we chose because we thought it was quality um so no so there's nothing like that
19:29 thank goodness but um well do you think especially like yeah well and especially like in a
19:35 platform that has no commercials and you think you know Netflix is um I don't know last couple quarters
19:41 like they're they're subscribers have been slightly down and they're looking for ways to tighten the belt a little
19:47 bit without introducing commercials like that that they're they're on platforms like
19:52 technology is now exists for actually I think a lot about Amazon Prime like they seem even perfectly fit for it because
19:59 they're built on top of the world's largest e-commerce Marketplace so to
20:05 have you know like you know when you pause a show on Amazon Prime and you can see all the actors and everyone in that
20:11 scene to see the product in that scene and then just go you know use one buy
20:17 one click buy like if you're logged in you're logged into your Amazon account your Amazon has your credit card and
20:23 address Jay I hadn't thought about that but like they're the ones that are they're it's
20:28 they already have it they just have to connect it the time totally
20:33 like they already have the perfect platform it'll happen
20:39 well we'll look we'll look back at this podcast in a few years and I'll say hey John remember when you're talking about yeah yeah we were ahead of our time
20:47 shopping now yeah yeah which I've heard it has mixed
20:53 mixed results um but it's early right so it's gonna it's gonna get perfected it's gonna get better
20:59 um but it would it's just the way video video converts like there's so many all the data points and whenever
21:06 you introduce video into that sales funnel and that's or that customer Journey
21:11 um it just the what the effects it has on conversion is is drastic
21:17 yeah it's interesting live live shopping in general that you know everybody is
21:22 and we're obviously still in its infancy here in in North America but you you
21:29 know everybody that's very very Bull on live shopping references how big it is in China right it's yes yeah huge huge
21:37 huge subset of of Ecom there and will I don't know if it'll It's not
21:44 catching on at the speed that that the the experts thought it would
21:49 um and maybe it won't because you're you're seeing like you know your example of of Amazon the
21:57 initial um response hasn't been great you look at uh us as an example with YouTube we were
22:04 we had our call with our Shopify rep and they said hey you know the announcement of this
22:10 integration we've already you're on a short list of accounts that have already
22:15 been pre-approved to go and and start and this was this was 60 days ago and we
22:22 we had an internal column we said okay well um let's watch a couple of these other
22:28 brands go first and let's pick up some learnings from them and that way when we
22:33 go you know a step ahead and we're 60 days in and we haven't seen any
22:40 one's doing interesting yeah there's definitely some adoption issues in in
22:45 North America with with it and I don't know if if maybe that's just part of it and eventually it'll catch fire or if
22:52 it'll just maybe it's definitely gonna be a part of our future live shopping but it might just end up not being as
22:58 big as big as it is in China yeah I think it it well it's like
23:03 anything when it when something gets rolled out it different markets are different too like if we're not we don't
23:09 use social media the same way and and that that that they do in China and so
23:14 it we're you're building on top of a infrastructure that is different it's inherently different and
23:21 um I don't know the exact stat but it's something like 90 percent of media is consumed on phones in China it's not yet
23:28 that way in America but like it's getting there so maybe we're just a little bit behind I don't know I'd like
23:34 to go back actually to the community um Community uh conversation a little bit um because this I heard a quote
23:41 recently that someone said um in the future all the successful
23:47 e-commerce Brands will be content creators and and Community Builders those will be the successful e-commerce
23:55 Brands um it's not about like you know when the barrier to entry becomes so low and you
24:01 know you're on Shopify you you can have a store up and running in from breakfast
24:07 till dinner um and be selling like it's it's that easy you can you don't need it like getting a payment Gateway set up I I
24:15 started selling online in 1998. I remember having to sign to get a merchant account just just to be able to
24:22 charge a credit card I had to guarantee my personal uh all my net worth like it
24:29 was a 60-day process to be able to charge a credit card anyways I could go on about all these challenges but
24:35 Shopify has done a good job of removing the barrier to entry so when that
24:40 barrier to entry becomes zero which is which is a good thing um there's still going to be winners and
24:46 they're still going to be losers just because the barrier of Entry is so low it doesn't mean everyone they're not all going to be successful so the ones that
24:51 now are um and this I think comes to the the community aspect and the content
24:58 um what are some things you've learned uh getting community and content right
25:04 like I'm sure you've blundered and made some mistakes and found out some things that work then maybe let's hone in on the community piece um what what what
25:11 have you got right around community so
25:17 the the interaction the engagement we've always made it a priority whether it was on ads or posts we we always engaged and
25:25 and and interacted um and one of the things we did and it's
25:31 it's at it it's had iterations we we launched in a short order uh
25:38 battlboxforum.com and we pushed into our customers we pushed it in
25:43 um we weren't doing content like we do now but any sort of content we did we we reminded people of it it was in the
25:49 little card that was in the box and it it wasn't a you didn't have to be a battle Box customer to join it it was
25:56 just connecting you know like-minded people that like to go Outdoors or um you know wanted survival gear or
26:03 camping gear and we we built that and pushed it and it was it was agnostic it
26:09 didn't matter if you were a battle Box customer or not and uh we we you know it was very Reddit style
26:16 if you will and it was just we we built it in conjunction with battlbox not as you
26:24 know a battle box piece and and that was the focus and that organically
26:30 um grew and I I think when you're building Community you have to make sure that you're doing
26:37 it for the right reasons and it's not serving just some agenda
26:43 and I think if you genuinely build it in that in that view
26:48 you're you're setting yourself up for the best chance of success like don't you don't you don't make a Facebook
26:54 group for your company so you can so you can uh make a post every day about why everybody should sign up for your
27:00 service like like give them give them something that's actually valuable
27:06 that's has nothing to do with with you know your product you can't you
27:13 can't make it about your product and then that's why you know though the Mr Beast and the note boys for example why
27:19 they've why they're having success right they they didn't they they built the community first
27:25 um before there was even a product yeah um yeah other other learnings is you
27:31 know you have to be um you need to be really a most bleeding edge following what's what's working
27:39 with content right so you saw um you saw Tick Tock and so we we joined
27:48 we were I thought we were late to the game with Tick Tock so we started I
27:53 guess uh February of
27:58 2021 like we had the account but we weren't really doing anything with it and we started
28:04 pushing hard in February 2021 and I mean it was it was lots of learnings lots of
28:11 failures I uh so I have a a Blog that I do a really poor job of writing often on
28:17 but I when I do right I wrote a couple kind of updates through the Journey and
28:24 you know we were having some small successes but you know they weren't too noteworthy and
28:29 it was a lot of learnings and a lot of failures so I I love that I at least like wrote about it as we were going
28:34 through it but it took us a solid year before Tick Tock really popped and we
28:40 were really quick to like you know listen to the street listen to what everyone was saying what was working for
28:47 other people and we quickly found out that uh meta and uh and Google were were you
28:56 know a little nervous about Tick Tock and Tick Tock was kind of they were afraid they were going to steal their launch and all of a sudden meta and
29:03 Google made changes to their algorithm where uh Instagram reels and YouTube
29:09 shorts uh their version of tick tock were that type of content was treated as
29:15 if it was golden way better than um you know a picture uh on Instagram or a actual long-form
29:24 traditional horizontally shot video and as soon as we
29:29 heard that and saw that well we had been pushing content vertically uh on Tick
29:36 Tock for a year so we had a lot of content and we just started you know dumping it not with the Tick Tock logo
29:44 um it was video that we had uploaded that we had made and then uploaded to tick tock um and just repurposing it for those
29:51 channels when we did that um to YouTube I think we were at
29:57 we were on a slow build of about maybe four to five thousand new subscribers on
30:04 YouTube a year and it was just a slow build we're up to 50. we had an initial probably up to like 55k at the time so
30:11 it was just very slow we're adding you know four 400 new Subs a month and we
30:17 started dropping that the the vertical content because we had heard that that
30:23 was a thing and uh and we had all this content we started dropping it we went up we got up to we started doing that at
30:30 the beginning of the year and uh I think we're at like we just passed 500 000 Subs
30:37 um this month so all of a sudden while we were grabbing four or five thousand a year
30:42 we've we've added 450 000 this year so it's so what's what's your
30:48 what's the main what's the number one is Tick Tock the number one or is that YouTube past it so they they
30:55 they battle um if we're looking at our post purchase
31:00 survey for example on yeah you know how to First hear about us that they they battle back and forth right now Google's
31:07 YouTube is uh YouTubes are number one source and Tick Tock is number two but
31:13 they'll you know we could put out a good piece of content on one of them before the other and it could flip-flop
31:19 tomorrow Facebook Instagram are like I think
31:24 fifth and sixth for us now which is crazy because for years they were like a commanding one and two
31:31 yeah oh it's yeah the the it's I mean and I I think you're smart like your approach of just try things when they
31:37 come out you don't know if they're gonna stick they may or may not but get get in the game um get some content out there and see if
31:44 it works and if it does 10x down on it if it doesn't move on to the next but I think
31:51 it's uh so what would you say um well actually got a couple questions on the social media side of things I
31:57 guess one um I I was I was curious about this um I helped a lot of brands in different
32:04 spaces and I know in like in the space you're in you've got outdoor supplies there's there's knives there's different
32:10 things have you run into challenges with with paid advertising on these platforms and how have you navigated that
32:17 yeah yeah so um oh man the uh
32:25 it's been it's been a nightmare um it's not anymore but it was a nightmare for years so so we started off
32:31 you know in 2015 at with some Facebook ads right that's all we were running we didn't know any better yeah um we we
32:39 were seeing success and that's where we were going you looked at um any given time in like 99 of our traffic
32:46 was probably you know analytics UTM Facebook oh wow and that's just it was
32:54 working we we didn't know any better um it was it was naivety and we went to we
33:01 went into labor day of the first year and uh we had this big sale was the biggest sale we've ever done before we
33:08 were so excited it was Friday at five o'clock we get an email that our uh
33:13 account's been not like an ad turned off like our account had been canceled
33:19 and because of because of um so some of our boxes
33:25 occasionally include a knife and uh so that was that was the reason and we
33:31 got super lucky we jumped on the battle box forum and one of the one of the members of of this community we built
33:39 worked in Facebook yeah listen to this and he was his
33:45 Department uh area where he sat was like one room over from the compliance
33:53 now this didn't happen we didn't talk to him I think until like Tuesday the following week and we were desperate so
34:00 we posted in our group he talked to them and they had it on within within hours after he spoke to him we were good to go
34:06 but at that point good luck getting a hold of someone there otherwise like yes
34:12 it's insane and when we we still spent a lot with them but like we were spending
34:17 a lot with them and you would think you could have like a normal conversation it's such a challenge no so yeah
34:24 obviously at that moment when we got back we said okay clearly Facebook's important but we need to diversify
34:32 um yeah ASAP and you know we we we know what we're doing but there's people that
34:37 know what how to do it a lot better so if that was the first point we we brought on an
34:42 advertising agency and said okay where else what should we do help us um
34:48 and in the long run it probably was a blessing under in in disguise right I'm
34:54 assuming 100 100 we like we made some business rules after that like yes
34:59 there's gonna be ads that can scale and um that's that's great but like
35:04 in the short term it's acceptable but like long-term looking at periods of time like we really don't want any lead
35:11 source of ours to be greater than a six because when it is that it starts to become problematic and uh you're too
35:19 dependent on that source so we got back up and running
35:24 um at the beginning of the next year we got kicked off again and we didn't get back
35:32 we never we we just didn't get back um so you're still you're not doing paid
35:37 ads on Facebook right now so we are um so battle box the the the Facebook
35:45 account the Facebook page that has the blue check that has all of our our likes
35:52 and follows um yeah so yeah
35:59 I know my my brother has an archery target company he sells archery targets and it just like he his his account
36:07 um also was was banned from Facebook because there was a bow I mean it's an Olympic sport archery but you can't have
36:14 a bow in an ad you can have the Target in an ad but not the bow and so exactly
36:20 the same thing his Facebook account like not his personal one but the company's account same thing but he can still run
36:27 ads through another Facebook account running ads for that site
36:33 it's uh I'm told it's usually a competitor
36:38 reporting your ad but I don't know for sure but I've been told that that's generally
36:45 yeah wouldn't surprise me oh Facebook doesn't go out of their way to to ban people it's they lose money when they do
36:51 it but if you get enough competitors reporting an ad saying this ad is
36:56 offensive or something like that then they just maybe they don't have enough people to check every single one if there's enough
37:03 complaints then they then they shut it down so I I don't know how true that is but that's what I was told
37:10 um it's just interesting I was curious how you navigated that because it's I I've heard this come up for for many Brands who are in a completely
37:17 legitimate space um but it's like like what you're going through yeah so we we ended up
37:24 um at that point creating secondary and tertiary Facebook accounts um we actually got a
37:31 hold our agency at the time who we were using how to wrap and you know agencies
37:36 are able to actually communicate pretty regularly with with Facebook they typically have an account manager that
37:42 isn't isn't a new hire that you're only going to have for three months the um we
37:48 are so we spoke with them and what we did is we built
37:53 um these these secondary and tertiary Pages this was our second iteration this is not where we're at today but
38:01 if the traffic we would we put UTM parameters in all of our ads and if the
38:07 traffic was originating from Facebook or Instagram we had Logic on our site that
38:15 completely scrubbed and made the experience as PG as possible we changed
38:22 words we changed images it was just a diff it was a different experience if if you originated from uh Facebook or
38:30 Instagram now if you went there afterwards directly you saw you saw the real site
38:35 so we we ran this by by Facebook the Facebook account major they looked at it
38:42 they said everything was fine we were good we spun up ads we were Off to the Races and and that
38:49 lasted for about nine months and then out of out of
38:54 the blue all of those accounts got canceled we got
38:59 um yeah we we got terminated and we were back back to the
39:05 drawing board we were off so we were off no no Facebook Instagram for
39:11 I think three months and we at this point we built these headless uh microsites
39:17 so we we they were we made we made it where it was templatized we could spin
39:22 one up with a domain a Facebook page um and an ad account everything
39:29 everything we needed um within a matter of uh I don't know
39:34 probably 30 minutes dragging and dropping the imagery that we needed so it was like almost like a web Builder
39:40 and it would it built this headless um yeah site that then connected you
39:45 know to Shopify for the for the back end yeah yeah and we did that and um
39:54 Off to the Races again good to go we we switched agencies
39:59 unrelated reason and the new agency um had a really good and that's our it's
40:05 our actual our current agency they have a really good relationship with their Facebook rep we jumped on a call because
40:11 at the end of the day we're still having to run these trap this traffic to these micro sites which it works but it's not
40:18 ideal right we're not getting them into our domain um yeah when we were when we were
40:24 putting him on our domain uh trying to run as to our domain they
40:29 would Facebook wouldn't even allow us to run ads on our domain so we finally spoke to them and got them to remove
40:36 whatever this uh red flag or um thing they had put on our account
40:42 they wouldn't even they had like when was blacklisted the domain but we talked to them and it was like in the last is
40:49 about a year ago and they they they remove that so now we can run ads to our domain again which is great
40:56 um but I mean for five years five years I couldn't run ads to our domain which
41:03 is it's tough it's tough for growth when uh we have such a hindrance
41:08 well when I asked you that question I didn't think this was going to be the the answer I was expecting so yeah I
41:13 mean some challenges but that's that's crazy yeah um there's no problem nope no problems
41:20 anywhere else Tick Tock or uh you know they'll they'll kill because we'd also
41:25 follow the rules to a team they were overly cautious with it um we're in firm understanding of all
41:33 all platforms terms and what they are and we we follow them so the other
41:39 platforms are all differently occasionally an adult get like caught up and we just shoot them a note in within
41:45 you know an hour to a day they've turned it back on they've apologized and we
41:50 move on but yeah for years problem so given all these challenges
41:56 what have been some other ways that you've that you've grown that you've grown have you leveraged
42:01 marketplaces or like influencer um maybe let's talk about marketplaces have
42:07 you done anything there or what what have been some other growth channels for you so one of the things in our initial
42:14 strategy and it's actually how how we found Brandon
42:19 um indirectly is uh we send I think at this point we
42:25 probably sent about 50 a month back then we're probably sitting 25 just off the jump boxes to uh YouTubers influencers
42:34 um anybody that's that's putting out content so in a given month now like you know
42:40 our uh last battle Box Mission 92 dropped uh people started receiving it
42:46 about two weeks ago um and then you know all of a sudden there's dozens
42:52 on dozens of reviews on YouTube and dozens of reviews elsewhere yeah so that was a big a big part of our
42:59 strategy and continues to be is is getting it out there um we
43:04 invest a lot of time and resources and SEO um so we have
43:11 multiple articles that are that are being published on our site um we're you know working with an SEO
43:17 Agency for for uh articles about us you know Elsewhere on the interwebs it's
43:24 it's a constant it's a constant piece but honestly for the last few years content and and yeah
43:31 and putting out content that's just that's organic and uh isn't salesy for the most part yeah
43:39 but it does get into our site and then they do opt-in for email and you know at that point we're going to be able to
43:45 reprospect them and we're gonna then be able to send them offers but a lot of the uh
43:51 a big chunk of of our business is is done through you know I guess you would
43:57 classify it as word of mouth but it's it's via VIA content
44:02 you you do sell also on Amazon am I correct or not we do so so initially
44:10 we um we were when we first started with them we only were doing the um
44:16 there's their Amazon subscription Amazon subscribe yeah good job and then
44:24 and then we ended up um doing more and it's
44:30 so we do FBA um and it I think we probably have a
44:36 we have a decent decent amount of one time one-time offerings there um but it's not a very large channel for
44:42 us yeah so are you just out of curiosity are you do you are you pushing it at all
44:48 or do you just feel that you need it there in case someone searches for battlebox on Amazon
44:55 yeah it's the latter it's it's a defensive move um yeah I mean don't it it's a it's a
45:01 decent sized part of the business I mean annually I don't know maybe
45:06 450 500 000 but to the big Grand schema things that's that's not that's not much
45:12 and so it's not it's a very very very small part of the business but yeah you're right it's just
45:18 it's more defensive right so expensive yeah yeah like FBA which if you're not
45:23 FBA fbm can still kind of get the buy box sometimes but it's it's if you do
45:29 FBA and you're storage fees are like 32 33 coming off the top
45:35 yeah it's interesting um just a few Brands so liquid death is
45:42 one of the brands that we we worked with for years for subscriptions and then I
45:47 noticed um I noticed one day on their site you could still subscribe they use Shopify as well but I think a case I
45:54 don't feel like doing a liquid death yeah yeah they've kind of become super they
45:59 only launched in 2019 but they just recently were got investment they were valued at 700 million it's basically
46:07 um mineral water in a can that looks like a beer can but they their marketing is is genius but anyways they they were
46:14 selling a case of water on subscription for 17.99 a case and then they had a
46:20 button underneath that said or subscribe on Amazon for 14.99 a case which right
46:26 it might have been 15 but it was like three bucks less than buying Direct in their site which I thought made no sense because they're
46:33 also paying the Amazon 15 Marketplace fee and whatever yeah
46:38 um FBA fees and whatever else um but but it was actually very
46:44 deliberate and their goal was to funnel all their traffic to Amazon and then
46:51 become the number one mineral water so if purchased on Amazon now so right now
46:58 actually if you go on Amazon and you search mineral water it's like they have position like one one two three and four
47:05 and now it's a now it's a Snowball Effect because they hold those positions they just get more and more
47:12 um but it was it was an investment like sending them there and losing the three dollars per case they saw as an
47:18 investment to to grab the land and now they're now they're holding the lead it's it it's just interesting I'm I'm
47:24 following I'm paying attention a lot like you look at brands that start you know there's there's a lot to be said
47:30 for direct to consumer but you know you used to see um it was the opposite Brands would kind
47:36 of try to go directing consumer now we're seeing Brands start direct to Consumer and then now it's how do they get into stores like dude wipes liquid
47:43 IV um hint water you look at all these other ones that are like fantastic d2c brands
47:50 um but then their play is to end up getting into distribution channels so I was curious if there was like a longer
47:56 term strategy there maybe with Amazon no so uh a hundred percent
48:01 um a couple thoughts one so I'm not sure if you're familiar with a brand called crossnet uh oh yeah yeah I know Chris
48:09 Chris actually was on the podcast oh okay cool so one of the founders yeah
48:14 yeah so so I was I was chatting with Chris and he was telling me that they were at the time I don't know if they're
48:20 still doing this but this was a few months back they were running their Facebook ads to not their site but to
48:27 Amazon uh probably for similar similar reasons
48:33 similar reasons but also um that Amazon's such a trusted uh source to
48:40 Consumers these days he was saying the cap was
48:45 so substantially better running the ad to Amazon
48:51 that it still made sense financially to pay the you know the the Amazon fees
48:59 that it was still a better deal at the end of the bot at the end of the day to the bottom line because the conversion
49:05 rate was so much better on Amazon versus site which was kind of mind-blowing to me
49:10 interesting um yeah yeah there's that too I didn't even that but the the prime
49:16 factor right it's the trust which Shopify now is is trying to kind of get in there as well too with the shop
49:22 promise and I mean it's the same shop yeah exactly yeah it's interesting
49:28 sorry go ahead no no I'm just gonna say it's it's an interesting strategy like I've I've
49:34 always been there's no it's not like I've never kind of bought into the rhetoric like it's Amazon is evil and
49:41 d2c is bad I think they both have their place they just need to be used the right way and not get used because you
49:48 also don't want all your eggs in the Amazon basket because they can they can um that can be just as
49:54 dangerous too but if used properly and once you've built your brand and you have a defensible brand then you can
50:01 potentially leverage marketplaces uh 100 so today back to answer your question
50:07 though um it's funny you were talking about you know starting on Ecom and getting to
50:12 retail that's that was that's been one of our our hot buttons of and and focuses is is how do we crack how do we
50:20 how do we get in retail what retail is the right fit so for us
50:25 um because there's a perceived value around our brand um and we've seen some other brands in
50:32 in our space the outdoor space that are in Walmart and then when we feature them in in our box
50:39 our consumers are like oh this is a cheap Walmart brand so you know we're a
50:45 little cognizant of uh being strategic with what retail makes sense is it a is
50:51 it an Academy Sports is it uh you know is it a a dicks or Cabela's and and
50:57 thinking thinking through that and and we're trying it's it's a little bit of a process I've been trying to pick uh the
51:05 brains of people that have already been there and had success you know going from D to Ceda to to retail traditional
51:13 retail um yeah I think it's you know you you say okay how how do we
51:20 become a hundred million dollar company or a 200 million dollar company and for
51:26 us to to get to that next step at this time I think I think retail almost has to has to have a place in
51:34 that in that journey to accomplish that and and get to the next the next stepping store if you will
51:40 yeah I think so yeah it's tough and there's different ways to it's not necessarily the box but it might I mean
51:47 that was one of the questions I wanted to talk ask about was like what um like the brand battlbox
51:54 um you're I I feel like your your brand is ultimately more important than the
52:01 contents in the box and eventually you know especially with you know the show
52:06 on Netflix and the community and you're doing a lot of things like really right and now when battle box maybe
52:14 potentially launches um certain products or like you you once you have that brand then then you have
52:21 the power to maybe enter into retail and I think I I feel like you're I feel like
52:26 you do but um that's just my observation but um it's an interesting challenge because
52:31 I do think that as much as I love subscription boxes too like you know we we've gone
52:37 through the craze and you know seven years ago when they kind of like boomed and now they're now they're they're
52:43 doing they're doing fine there's nothing wrong with subscription boxes but there is it's not like when you launched subscription boxes I know I heard your
52:50 story you said like there was there was just no other survival subscription box there was yeah your co-founder saw
52:56 Birchbox but but now you can pretty much find a subscription box for everything almost
53:01 so um so what's that next phase right that's the that's the challenge
53:07 yeah and I think it uh I I think you know we're going full
53:12 circle in it to what we said earlier in the conversation and it's it's this it's
53:19 this Blurred Lines of media and and Ecom yeah and yep you know uh is is the
53:27 future a battle box the Box isn't going anywhere don't get me wrong but is it is it a more content driven is it
53:34 membership is it is it is is a subscription piece is there is there
53:40 more to it than just the box right is there you know people talk about memberships all the time but you know we
53:46 there might be a fit for us there and it might be revolved around uh content it's
53:52 yeah it's definitely a changing landscape really quickly and I think if
53:57 um I think whoever the quote you said I think I think that's accurate the consumer
54:03 the consumer is changing they're they're buying patterns and their decision making when it comes to purchases so
54:10 it's yeah it's interesting for sure yeah I wanna before we run out of time here I wanna one last topic I want to dive into
54:17 because I I I would I'm super curious um Battlbox was acquired I guess almost
54:23 one year ago now right or probably yeah a year ago one year ago 12 days ago
54:29 amazing well congratulations on your one year anniversary I guess all that
54:35 um I'm I'm curious because I know we we have a lot of subscription Brands listening um going through that process
54:43 um what were some of the takeaways that like okay so first of all maybe what were some of the most important metrics
54:50 um that uh that the acquirers looked at um to kind of determine maybe the health of of battlbox and
54:58 um what were some of the things they stood up or ultimately what I'm hoping to get at is like what people listening can
55:04 um what they can focus on like so what are what are what were key metrics that they looked at to determine battlebox
55:09 was a great company to acquire yeah Jay it's exactly what you think that it would be right it's it's aov it's churn
55:17 it's LTV um all the metrics that that we all talk
55:22 about that are important they they they asked about them they wanted to see him and they asked about them seven
55:28 different ways yeah they wanted to see the data they wanted to have a it was a
55:34 it was a 900 they they pulled a bunch of customer data to run their own analysis
55:39 um and not just trust the platforms and uh it was a 900 megabyte file they kept
55:46 crack the guy that was crashing his computer um he was screen sharing and it hurt to
55:51 watch but um because it's just a big giant data file but ultimately they were
55:59 they they pulled the data and they they did their own analysis to see okay is this the LTV is this church is this the
56:05 percentage um and it all the metrics that everybody says matter they they truly matter
56:13 um so you know any any tools to to or things you can do to increase that
56:20 um you know there's obviously a plethora of best practices yeah that can be did you did you on your site right now you
56:27 have the four different um I forget the names of them there's like the basic the intermediate you have four different price points right four
56:35 tiers did you have that before the acquisition or was that introduced after how long have you had those four
56:40 tiers no so we we the the cool thing about the acquisition is we've made
56:45 um zero changes to how the business operates okay so that's been around for
56:51 a while yeah so we launched we launched with that it's funny so when we launched we
56:56 had the same four tiers we have now the funny thing about it is that when we
57:01 when they were created we with 100 certainty facing a bet the the basic box
57:08 it was 25 when we launched um but we were very very very confident
57:15 that was going to be the most popular and the the proof was it was 150 when we launched
57:21 um we were like okay some people might might go for that
57:26 um that's the the Pro Plus that's 41 of our bases and that that's the
57:33 that's what everybody wants which is just it was kind of mind-blowing um you know the little bit of learnings
57:39 we had at the time in 2015 when it came to subscription you know using the Birch
57:45 boxes of the world is kind of like the the pace car of learnings was you know
57:51 low price point is where it's at that that 15 a month
57:56 um and we we our hypothesis was 100 Incorrect and it was the the high priced
58:03 one interesting well the reason so the reason I ask is um what one of the metrics that um is in
58:12 in SAS like in a company like bold like we have recurring Revenue but it's for software but similar similar concept
58:20 um net dollar retention is really important as a metric and what that is is um when you get a user or a customer do
58:27 they become more valuable over time so having a path where a customer is a 19
58:33 customer to start you you have it seems like an upgrade path
58:39 um it could also just be individual add-ons are there like monthly I know you have a lot of one-time products people can buy but
58:46 um how much of a did they look at that or was that a factor no surprising
58:51 surprisingly they didn't um interesting which is which is interesting now we did we we do have a
58:57 path towards upgrading and and we do have data that shows that
59:02 um customers that come in at the lower tiers over time through just a couple just stuff that we do like we include
59:09 the insert shows them also what they are our tier stack so if you get the basic
59:16 you get these items but if you get the Pro Plus you get all the items from the basic Advanced and pro right
59:21 um yeah you know including the insert that shows them what they missed and a few other things
59:27 um we see that through time the data shows that they customers do upgrade but no it wasn't it wasn't a drawdown at all
59:34 and I I come from the the SAS world so it was uh it was it's something I'm
59:40 cognizant of and it's it wasn't even it wasn't discussed it was it was the high level
59:46 metrics and and of course like outside of that margin right
59:52 um margin if you if you have
59:57 um a bad margin it's that just means it's you know they can only pay so much of a multiplier off off even that's a
1:00:05 that's like it's a big difference too right the valuation model totally first company versus a physical product is
1:00:14 significantly different yeah well it's interesting just like if
1:00:19 you have a good enough upgrade path you can get to a point where you actually have negative churn
1:00:24 um because even though you're losing customers your existing customers and Shopify they're a good example of this I
1:00:29 don't know if like this last quarter if they post a negative churn but many earnings calls their their net churn is
1:00:37 actually negative because so even though they lose Merchants their existing Merchants are either upgrading Shopify
1:00:43 plans or Shopify is making more off of them because of the transaction fees and other
1:00:49 um other ways they make money for merchants but their net it was negative so they're actually it's and and I was
1:00:54 wondering if you might be in a situation like that because of it seems like you have a very healthy upgrade path
1:01:01 um which like I preach this all the time and I I when I saw your your different options and how I was I was curious the
1:01:07 strategy to move them up um do you know if you're if your net turn is negative or is that something
1:01:13 you you have so so we we look we don't we don't have a tool right now we have
1:01:20 to actually just jump into the data um yeah so we did look um prior to the acquisition we did look
1:01:26 at that and we we we are or we were I would assume we still are that's but
1:01:31 it's we we thought that that would for sure be like something we could say and they would
1:01:36 dig in and they would look and yeah it would be a conversation um but it but it wasn't I mean they were
1:01:43 like oh that's great that's cool but it wasn't a it wasn't a digging maybe maybe
1:01:48 because it you were in such a healthy State they maybe didn't want to highlight it yeah I mean you know what I mean like
1:01:55 it's a negotiating point if you if your net dollar attention is really healthy I you know maybe they could have paid
1:02:01 more I don't I'm assuming whatever you got was fair but like maybe that was that was a a strategic thing not to dig
1:02:07 into it because it was good um so why why point that out yeah I mean
1:02:13 they're at the end of the day their financial their yeah exactly right so like
1:02:18 um we're already coming to the uh to the negotiation with with the hand behind our uh back yeah yeah
1:02:26 is there anything advice oh go ahead one one other thing that uh
1:02:32 talking about you know the process of of of if you want to be acquired if you
1:02:38 want that to be your next step a few things that you know we had to change fairly quickly so when we decided hey we
1:02:46 want to be acquired it wasn't our original um goal when we launched the company
1:02:52 um but when we decided a couple years in that we wanted to uh it took us quite a
1:02:57 while to get our house in order and even when we thought it was in order yeah it truly wasn't
1:03:03 um so it's a grueling process yeah like so you have to have you know at least 12
1:03:08 months AI you're throwing 12 months need to tell the right story
1:03:14 um you have to you know obviously be at least if you know not necessarily if
1:03:20 you're a SAS company but like for for a traditional uh physical product like us
1:03:26 you know you want to have some profitability since that ultimately is going to be the Baseline for a
1:03:32 multiplier um ours was the multiplier half ebitda so of course that's important but you know
1:03:40 a big thing and we weren't prepared for this because we didn't know any better even after we we brought in our CFO and
1:03:47 he cleaned us up and got us in you know the right plugged all the holes up in the ship and
1:03:52 we had a you know a nice story and a great troll in 12 months at the end of the day
1:03:57 um we had never gone through a financial audit before and we had to we had to complete one
1:04:03 um we had to find find a firm and complete one prior and there were a lot of nuances just crazy things we had
1:04:10 never thought of that seemed crazy to us now they're standard but like you know Shopify we have a renewal and Shopify
1:04:18 tells us this much money and you know within two two days we have that money and we were counting that if it happened
1:04:26 in October we were counting it in October we didn't know that we had to do deferred revenue and we couldn't count
1:04:32 stuff until his Revenue until it actually ships like stuff we definitely weren't doing because we just we didn't
1:04:39 know any better um so that was a that was a little bit of a grueling process the the audit took
1:04:45 probably entirely way longer than anybody thought it would uh so I I would
1:04:50 almost say if you're in a size where um you're you're trying to be acquired
1:04:56 and you've gone through you've already cleaned house and and you you believe you're in working order you're gonna
1:05:01 have to get a nodded anyway um so it might not be a bad move to go ahead and get one and have audited
1:05:07 financials yeah couldn't agree more we we started doing that years ago at both
1:05:13 self-auditing every year and it's just been um and it's a yeah for transactions like
1:05:19 this but it's also just a healthy a healthy thing to do because yeah better you do it than
1:05:25 it could be an investor it could be the government it could be anything so yeah it's uh oh man it was it was a Googling
1:05:32 process to have have that third party come in and do it and we hadn't to your point we hadn't been doing it ourselves
1:05:38 so it was it was quite the process uh John this has been honestly such a
1:05:44 fun conversation I feel like I could talk to you for hours but uh when I want to wrap this up at some point here I've
1:05:50 got a bunch of episodes of uh Southern survival to go watch so I'm gonna have to let you go all right
1:05:57 where um where where what social media platforms are you active on where can people follow you
1:06:03 um LinkedIn honestly is probably
1:06:09 um the best place but I'm I'm everywhere uh I'll make sure to put the links in the show notes as well Instagram yeah
1:06:15 and Twitter are like I'll I'll drop business stuff Facebook I keep purely just uh just friends
1:06:23 um just just for the the grandmas and grandpas that are on Facebook man do you remember when when uh when
1:06:29 that wasn't the case it's crazy I literally only post stuff for my mom on Facebook that's what oh she's probably gonna listen to this now
1:06:36 exactly yeah thank you so much awesome thank you so much Sean you bet all right
1:06:41 bye that's it for another episode of own your Commerce if what you've heard has
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