John Roman, the visionary CEO of Battlbox, guides us through their ingenious approach to harnessing the full potential of ecommerce. Their secret? The art of forging genuine connections with both their loyal subscription users and prospective customers. In addition to this, they've successfully constructed a vibrant and thriving community that revolves passionately around their exceptional product.
Transcript from video:
0:02 hello and welcome back to another episode of hyper growth the podcast that's dedicated to unpacking what it
0:09 takes to build a rapidly scalable e-commerce business I'm your host Arjun Jolly Co-founder of AD quadrant and
0:16 joining me today is John Roman the CEO of Battlbox Battlbox is an e-commerce
0:21 brand that provides their subscribers with a monthly box of outdoor survival
0:27 and everyday carry gear handpicked by their team of outdoor experts their company does north of 20 million in
0:33 revenue and they even have their own Netflix show called Southern survival and they've been known to take their
0:40 customers out to shoot tanks how badass is that John welcome to the show thanks so much for having me excited to be here
0:46 so John just to kick us off why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself your background battlbox how you got it
0:53 started what's the story behind what you're doing today my background is not this is technically my third career so
1:00 to my um parents uh extremely
1:05 positive feeling about it I uh after after University I decided I was going
1:11 to play poker professionally so I did that for uh about four and a half years
1:18 after that went into sales um so entry level sales sales job or you know at
1:25 that point I'm five years older than everybody else so really had to grind that one out and had a lot of success
1:32 with it and you know the better part of a decade moved into simply building B2B
1:39 sales teams so technology software typically you know by the end
1:44 of it Fortune 2000ish companies targeting the sea Suite of of those
1:49 types of entities and did really really well with it it was definitely the career I was in to stick in and in late
1:57 2014 early 2015 I started investing in in companies companies that were
2:04 crossing my network I've always been a big big believer in in spending time
2:10 working on your Network and and you know increasing the size of it so I had a
2:16 weird stint where you know a dozen opportunities in a very short period of time all from different parts of my
2:22 network had crossed my desk battlbox was was one of them and I instantly knew
2:28 I had to be involved I was pretty naive at the time when it came to my investing
2:33 criteria basically I would just invest in it and uh if you look at the probably
2:38 roughly I think seven Investments I made at that time the other six Went to went
2:43 to zero um battlbox was was was not the case so invested and became a partner
2:50 and and got involved in in battlebox about a week after it officially
2:55 launched it quickly had had momentum um I found myself burning from both ends
3:03 where I had my my nine to five and this was my six to 12 every day and uh I
3:10 finally about a year in our our run rate was was going to be in the eight figures
3:16 and I had to make a decision so I I joined full-time and the rest rest is
3:22 kind of kind of History so it started sounds like as a bit of a side hustle right as you like it's interesting
3:29 because you took that that VC approach right I mean you swung seven times six tanked no pun intended
3:35 uh one succeeded and that one was something that you got involved in
3:40 started as a side hustle and did that that full pivot right going into it as a as a full-time career yeah and that was
3:48 um not necessarily the the the plan that for me to get as involved as I did the original plan was limited capacity um I
3:57 would give maybe a couple hours a month more more like business advisory advisement Consulting and quickly
4:05 realized that somehow my B2B sales skill set somehow was correlating to the the
4:12 sales and the marketing side I was taking kind of a a similar approach and
4:17 and it was working so I quickly was inheriting sales marketing customer
4:23 experience um and it just it blossomed was was never the intent but then I
4:29 found myself actually enjoying it which became a problem because if you enjoy
4:35 something you want to keep working on it awesome so you've seen you've seen Ecom
4:40 before the pandemic through the pandemic now post pandemic um I'm curious to get
4:46 your thoughts just in terms of you know from your lens and having been in the space for as long as you've been there's
4:52 been all these changes especially in the past couple years what are you thinking about on a day-to-day basis and and
4:59 what's keep keeping you up at night as you think about where we're at today versus let's say where we where we were
5:04 at in 2020 or 2021 sure so yeah you know 2020 2021 e-commerce was easy um especially
5:12 right before the iOS thing like literally it did not take did not take much and and arguably what might be a
5:20 product Market fit in today's today's climate um might not have been today in
5:26 today's climate might have been back then right people were stuck in their home and just buying anything didn't
5:32 even have to be good ad and what what what keeps me up at night now what I'm
5:37 most focused on is is the community piece the the value at in connecting
5:43 with our customers you you look at um and I've spoken about this before where
5:49 you know our offering or anyone's offering falls on the need want scale and consumer Behavior has consistently
5:57 shifted Through The Years um with the slight anomaly of of the pandemic where
6:02 they want to connect with a brand and the farther it is on the want side versus the absolute essential need side
6:10 the more important it is where that consumer wants to feel some sort of connection um and the writing on the
6:17 wall of that being the case is is there in front of us you you're looking at these um for lack of better words
6:25 celebrities or influencers that have done a really good job with social media connecting with their fans and now
6:31 they're launching Brands and they're just instantly successful you know there's the the the people that started
6:38 on the content side like Mr Beast who's launched multiple instantly successful Brands and
6:45 then you you look at the the Kim Kardashian or the Kardashians in general multiple that have you know built
6:52 they've taken their celebrity their influence and they've parlayed it into the business and and both have you know
6:59 two of them have a one with a You could argue a billion dollar valuation whether
7:05 that's still the valuation or not significantly in the nine figures though and you look at um Kim Kardashian who
7:12 her brand they're talking about it going public and it being the the IPO that the actual Market needs which is which is
7:20 wild to think of but the the economics are there so you're seeing it from that
7:25 side and them reverse engineering it going the opposite of how Brands go but
7:31 I think it's just further validation that you have to connect with your consumers and and it is of the at most
7:37 important it's more about just the product it's about the experience yeah I think that that makes total sense it's
7:43 that I I think the need want scale is a crucial thing to consider and really just having that that Value First
7:48 mindset right to make sure that you're creating value whether it's uh tangible or in tangible value it's it's the
7:54 emotional component as well that the consumer feels on the other end right but I am curious ious to get your your
8:00 take on something here John on the basis of what has taken place in the last couple years um you know we're coming
8:07 from a grow at all costs type of market right and I I think that to your point
8:12 e-commerce was a bit easier uh during the last few years versus where it is at
8:18 today what's your take in terms of you know what founders of Ecom Brands need
8:23 to think about from a shift in mindset in terms of how Brands were operating and again let's say 20 2021 versus 2023
8:32 what's that shift of of things they need to consider things they need to look at then versus now I think the the big
8:38 thing is is you know depending operators Founders you there's a few different
8:44 doors they can go right they can try to try to bootstrap it themselves um and I
8:50 think if if if that's the approach you're taking um not much has changed in
8:56 the sense that if you're bootstrapping yourself you care about profit ability right you're caring about about growing
9:02 but but not at all costs if you if you jump to the other door where it's the hey let's just let's just grow at all
9:08 cost right we have 20 million we only need to worry about six months of Runway
9:14 let's scale and raise another uh set of money at that point that's all changed
9:19 right um vcp money it's it's it's one
9:25 it's extremely tougher to come by now um and it comes with terms and conditions and coments that
9:32 are scary um but that's even if you're getting an offer I think watching the
9:39 correction of of the last couple years for direct to Consumer Ecom it's it's
9:45 not an easy path so I think if if you are going the the the path of of raising
9:51 I think at this point and profitability probably was always in the equation but you're caring a little bit more about it
9:57 than you did you did before for right it's not acceptable to to go the route
10:03 of we'll figure it out later right or or using some some napkin math that yeah
10:09 you know we'll just stop spending in five years and it'll all be profitable you know that's it was kind of given
10:18 validity before um without necessarily the right reasons yeah I think I think
10:24 that's spot on and the other thing I would just add is that you're seeing a lot more brands pay attention to not just their direct
10:32 consumer online presence but what what's taking place offline and how they can integrate themselves into an offline
10:38 retail aspect as well right and then determining how do you really bridge that data how do you leverage iri data
10:45 how do you you know really measure the endpoint of that consumer across those
10:51 different channels be it offline and nonline and and really marry that story together so it's it's interesting for
10:57 sure to see that you know there's a bit of of a u Divergence that's taken place in terms of the type of brand and how
11:03 they operate to your point you might have that hardcore DTC brand where absolutely if they've got that bootstrap
11:09 mentality they've been focusing on profitability since day one and then on the flip side you've got the brands where they're looking at that growth in
11:15 market share and integrating more than just you know online channels into their strategy and really figuring out how
11:22 they how they navigate that yeah no you're spot on direct to Consumer is a sales channel it's not necessarily
11:29 business in its own accord right like um you're seeing a lot of
11:35 the and I I use this word semi Loosely but thought leaders in the space um
11:42 really they're they're focus on the other channels right which is which is wild because not a lot of people were
11:50 you know you go three years ago two and a half years ago everybody be like ew actual in-person retail
11:57 disgusting but yeah why would I ever do that and and
12:02 now that's part of the strategy right and it's an interesting piece because um
12:07 to get in to get into retail at scale it is very very expensive from a from a
12:13 cash cash suck cash flow perspective right you're you're having to manufacture take the cost of that and a
12:20 lot of the big box retailers and traditional retailers they have some pretty pretty um one-sided terms on on
12:29 how they're going to pay and how much they're going to pay it it really is a volume game to get you know s profit of
12:35 significance so it it kind of forces you to possibly have either a really strong
12:42 D toce channel that can support the growth or or looking at actually raising
12:47 or or borrowing yeah for sure it's it's you know you look at the let's just
12:53 let's just call it a poster child brand like a liquid death right I mean they've done amazing things online and offline
12:58 they've grown to massive scale but you also have smaller Brands out there an example one would be um you know a DDC
13:05 brand called live tinted which is a makeup brand for um individuals of uh different skin tones and complexions and
13:12 they started D Toc but then they started expanding into Ulta early right and and um they're taking that as a part of the
13:18 overall strategy so that they're kind of everywhere to everyone In Their audience
13:24 cohort but kind of everywhere to everyone and they're meeting consumers where they are rather than assuming
13:32 they're going to capture the consumer online only and assuming that's the only place they are right and again maybe
13:38 that was the case when we were all locked down uh in a pandemic and we couldn't shop as we normally would but
13:45 now things you I think it's just um it's opened everybody's eyes to a slightly different strategy and John even for
13:51 your business I mean it may not be considered offline retail but you've got a Netflix show right so let's talk about
13:58 that because ultim Ely that's not a direct to Consumer sales Channel but how is that how did that even come about and
14:04 how is that impacting the business sure so it definitely to this day Still Still impacts the business um I was looking at
14:11 our post-p purchase survey data this morning in a report that I get and it's still you know it's I think it was in
14:20 sixth or seventh place and we're pretty Diversified on our lead sources um on
14:25 but where did you first hear about it's the Netflix show so it was it was a process so Brandon Curran who's the face
14:32 of our brand um he started off as as just doing reviews paying for our boxes
14:39 um we we quickly put him into our influencer program and then from that um
14:45 the relationship grew and we made him an offer to come on fulltime as as the face of the brand so shortly after he came on
14:53 full-time we really upped the amount of content we were we were um putting out
14:59 every single month and it caught the eyes of a production studio called High Noon entertainment they're um two
15:06 feathers in their cap are um Cake Boss and uh fixer upper so two um two shows
15:15 that that honestly in in some capacity or another involved a brand um so they were
15:22 definitely speaking her language they shot um I even know if this is still a
15:28 term but it's Sizzle reel which typically you take and you shop to get money for a pilot so they shot a Sizzle
15:34 Reel with us took it to History Channel History Channel sat on it for six months
15:40 said no they took it a Discovery Channel Discovery Channel sat on it for six
15:45 months said no they and and they're simply asking for the money from one of
15:51 those two networks to film a pilot to then have to ask for money again um in
15:57 2019 January so this is a over a year at this point we've been working on it about a
16:03 year and a half since film um they took it to Netflix in January 2019 Netflix um
16:09 basically in the meeting said yeah we'll do it we we'll do this we don't do pilots we're we're gonna we're going to
16:16 give you the money for the first season and we want write a first refusal on the next seven and it was Off to the Races
16:23 we started filming in the second half of 2019 um for about 6 months came back in
16:31 January 2020 and uh filmed just some miscellaneous scenes so that everything
16:38 was was tied together the way the editors wanted it to be and then
16:43 complete radio silence crickets Netflix is not fun to work with because they were a business and they're viewing us
16:50 purely as Talent which the questions we're asking they don't even the people
16:55 we're talking to don't even have the answers um um which was frustrating but I get it they're a gigantic you know
17:02 Corporation but fast forward uh July 4th week in 2020 the show dropped and it it
17:10 definitely definitely changed momentum for us we were in the middle of the pandemic which was um amazing time for
17:18 e-commerce and a even a better time for a a company sending survival outdoor
17:24 gear um so it was it was perfect timing leading up to the show we were getting
17:30 about 125,000 130,000 unique visitors a month on our site in July 2020 we had 1.2
17:38 million unique visitors now they don't that it's not like Obi 10x it's OB 10x
17:43 the business the reality that traffic did not behave in the same manner as as
17:48 targeted paid traffic it was a much different buyer but some of our ideal
17:53 Persona ideal perfect VIP customers were in that mix too so we definitely saw and
17:59 saw a massive uplift so how did you measure that and I I understand I mean
18:06 obviously there's the aspect of running the campaign and then looking at site traffic um coinciding with the dates
18:11 that the show is airing Etc but what about to your point the purchasing Journey right how did you um look at the
18:18 measurement around those consumers and their consumer the difference in consumer behavior of the traffic that
18:26 was being generated from the show versus a direct response paid ad on Instagram
18:32 or search or something like that so would love to just unpack that what was your strategy there yeah so it was it
18:38 was tough um the most tough part about it is was leading up to his forecasting
18:43 because there was no case study there was no use case on a scenario like this
18:48 the closest thing we could find was the TV show Duck Dynasty where they had the
18:54 duck calls they were selling yeah and um the yeah but the fundamental problem with that is they were on traditional TV
19:01 where there was a new episode every every week so it was a slow build while this is you know Eight Episodes of 30
19:09 minutes a piece four hours especially in the pandemic that's a that's a night
19:14 you're going to watch that in a night so there was no real data to suggest how to
19:19 forecast how to plan so that was the the the biggest thing um once we got past
19:25 that yeah and the the traffic's tough to track too because you're really just looking at um Google traffic both paid
19:32 and unpaid because people are searching for you after watching the show and then direct traffic um so really search
19:41 search paid and direct is where we saw this huge uptick and where
19:46 99.9% of the uptick was occurring so it was really easy to to understand it
19:52 um but yeah it did not did not behave the same way um a a multi-touch approach
20:00 is is what worked best so uh the repr prospecting retargeting campaigns that
20:06 that we would TR traditionally run for a a much smaller period of time we were running for for a longer period of time
20:12 and still seeing uplift from that extended extended run um even at its
20:18 best conversion rate was was only about between a third and a half um of of
20:25 traditional paid traffic but it it was a it was a one-time purchase it we saw a
20:31 nice uptick in the subscription side but a lot of it was they were buying something from the show um that they saw
20:39 and then it was you know they were going to convert for another 90 days as we slowly marketed to them slowly sent them
20:47 um links to content and explained what our community was about it was a much
20:52 much much slower slower cell and it wasn't um it it wasn't like we knew what
20:58 we were doing per se right we were just trying to put ourselves in in the eyes
21:04 of of that new consumer and and trying to you know we had a few different ways
21:09 a campaign could go based on Behavior but really just trying to be um not
21:15 salesy at all um because people people don't like to be sold to there's a place
21:21 and time to to to really ask the hard questions and ask for the business and give a promotion but for the most part
21:29 especially someone that's watching a TV show for their enjoyment um they don't want to then immediately be hammered by
21:36 by that brand so it was it was a it was a much slower slower sell interesting so it sounds like there was there was
21:43 probably an element of a reduction in customer acquisition cost just based on the nature of how the customer was
21:48 acquired but LTV for those consumers was not as good as the LTV for a consumer
21:55 that you would go out and capture yourself via paid ads correct yeah converted at about half the rate LTV was
22:03 between a third and half of of traditional LTV so they they weren't now
22:08 you you take out though you go into a a a a cohort of that that influx and they
22:15 were our ideal customers um obviously the averages bring the mean brings a
22:22 down because there were a lot that had no no intention of of buying no
22:28 intention of getting more than ever getting the $10 thing they saw on the site so there's a lot of data in there
22:35 but in there was a sliver of the most perfect ideal customers that just hadn't heard of us before were you running um
22:40 post-p purchase surveys for those those one-time purchasers as well and getting getting an understanding of just kind of
22:46 who they were that way yeah so so the post-p purchase survey um a couple of
22:52 ways one we use software on the the front end for attribution since attribution is is is a nightmare here
22:58 it's it's checks and balance on on that just trying to see from a from a a
23:03 different Source if we're we're seeing the same trends that this you know this channel is working better better than
23:10 another other than that it's it's where our focus is on the content side so if
23:15 we see that that we're you know Tik Tock this month is is leading the way and the
23:22 advertising dollars don't necessarily state that that is the is the truth um
23:30 in the sense that yes if we're spending 80% on on Tik Tok Tik Tok should be the
23:35 majority Lion Share of the postp purchase survey data so when we see the um when we when we see the the
23:41 differences we know we just have to take it up a level and and produce um both
23:47 quality and content quality and qual quality and quantity um content on those
23:53 channels so like right now um we're struggling a bit bit on meta and
23:58 and Tik Tok but we're seeing YouTube where we advertise very little leading
24:03 the way for us so because of the advertising struggles but the postp purchase survey data is showing YouTube
24:09 so we're increasing the frequency of of some of our content currently on YouTube
24:15 kind of leaning into it a little yeah that that data is crucial
24:20 for that right to even just identify which channel and and what to what approach to take on that channel I think
24:25 it's really easy for um Ecom Brands and Founders and just you
24:31 know DDC marketers to look at it and say well that ad didn't convert um that that
24:37 that that ad is the row ass is bad we need to turn it off is that really the case because maybe you're actually you
24:44 know you're mining in the right field but you just have to take a different tool to it right you have to take a different tool towards how do you
24:50 capture that what's the angle what's the approach what's the creative what's the content look like and even what's the
24:56 skew that you're marketing to that audience and rather than operating only off of assumptions it's it's it's hypothesis
25:03 testing right it's so many so many variables continuously testing but then to your point bringing that data in
25:10 right like run those post-p purchase surveys make sure you're engaging with your customer after you've actually
25:15 acquired them get an understanding and almost build if you can a customer 360
25:21 map like you know leveraging a CDP or otherwise build that customer 360 map know your customer and know how capture
25:28 that cohort of audiences but getting getting back to metrics because this is such an important point for the
25:34 listeners um customer acquisition costs are rising um Subs subscription box
25:40 brands one of the hardest things for them is not only customer acquisition cost Rising but then maximizing LTV I
25:47 want to understand your your take on this what what's your what's your approach and your strategy to um
25:53 navigate these two challenges coupled with iOS now 17 I think. five around the corner
26:02 uh and all the Privacy things like what what's your take in terms of just customer acquisition retention and
26:07 really um weaving it all together to to succeed even in this rapidly changing
26:13 environment that we're in yeah so so customer acquisition costs in in 2015 I wish I knew what I knew now
26:22 um we we all yeah we were getting customers for less than $5 doll a piece
26:28 um now you know we're in a short eight years later we're going um I'm screaming
26:37 from the rooftop scale scale scale when we find campaigns where we can get customer acquisition costs of $80 or
26:43 less like go like spend spend until the diminishing returns so I don't care how
26:50 much we we'll figure it out and um it's it's really changed we've we've cared about
26:58 about customer retention and and worrying about churn we we we we made it a huge
27:05 priority back in 2019 um in 2020 when it wasn't cool um
27:12 no one no one really cared everybody's like oh just get another customer um now of course the the minds everybody's like
27:19 oh it is oh I've heard a million times through my life it's easier to keep a customer than get a new one this is what
27:25 they meant so um it matters so I I think as long as you
27:31 can extend the life cycle of the customer it's it's huge um there's
27:37 there's a million different ways to skin the cat we're currently testing um uh
27:43 automatic discount where we're just reaching out to them before they churn
27:48 because we know that's a tough tough spot after that third order sitting hey you don't even have to do anything we've
27:55 added this to your account here's a credit your next purchase it will just come it'll come off the top um we don't
28:02 have enough data yet on it we're we're probably two months away from having enough data to at least make an educated
28:09 guess on how the data finishes um but but little things like that little
28:14 additional touch points um that that any brand can do just to engage customers
28:21 you know we're looking at while we don't have enough data on the the that 3 to
28:26 four month span we're already talking about doing a a 12 to 13 month span or
28:32 12 to 13th order span where we see another slight dip and then we're going to run both of those in conjunction and
28:37 seat so awesome man that's it's such a cool strategy and I think you know going back to earlier part of the conversation
28:43 about bridging offline and online and just different ways to get in front of your customer experiences like that are
28:51 just it's such a great way not just to solidify your stance with those customers that are getting the experience but also the audiences they
28:58 reach as your creators and influencers as they're talking about it and and hyping up their experience right so just
29:05 such an awesome experience also really happy to hear that your swag bag uh was valued at what it was versus the
29:11 conference Swag Bags because I can't tell you how many of the damn like hand sanitizers and little foam chachkies I
29:18 got so good on you for having solid Swag Bags thank you so John we're we're
29:25 wrapping up today and I think this was awesome the listeners are I'm sure going to take a lot away from the show but
29:30 just before we close out what's one piece of advice that you would like to give to fellow D Toc Ecom Founders as we
29:39 navigate the coming years ahead um I think the when we talk about
29:46 the coming years it's it's interesting because the end part of that is a much
29:52 Greener pasture um it's going to be some some challenging years where we're going to continue to not only have customer
30:00 acquisition issues and and retention issues but you know larger economic
30:06 climate issues right and I think if you can just hunker down and and Care get
30:12 back to the basics um listen to your customers try to retain your customers
30:18 surprise and delight and you can do it all profitably um through this window I
30:23 think you're in such an amazing position when you get out of it and I think legitimately so many opportunities are
30:30 going to be out there from both customer acquisition to potential um Acquisitions
30:36 yourself I think there's a lot of opportunities or mergers in in the next
30:41 couple years but the other side of it it's going to be beautiful and it's
30:47 going to be it's going to be great when when the economy is rebound for sure awesome advice John
30:54 thanks so much for the time today it was great having you on the show I know listeners are going to love a lot of what you talked about definitely a
31:00 unique take on everything from the Netflix experience to the tank to your marketing strategies so really
31:06 appreciate you joining us today to everyone tuning in and listening and watching watching today to hyper growth
31:12 thanks again for uh joining us and uh stay tuned for the next episode of hyper growth take
31:19 care all right
