What does it really take to retain customers in a category where no one needs your product?
In episode #22 of the Retention Edge by MobiLoud, John Roman, CEO of BattlBox, unpacks how they grew a $20M+ subscription business by leading with content, community, and customer experience. No loyalty gimmicks. No endless discounts. Just consistent value that makes people want to stay.
We stripped this episode down to just the highlights of our discussion with John - and it’s still a trove of first-hand information from a hugely successful business.
From being featured on Netflix to building surprise-and-delight moments like $25K golden ticket competitions, John shares the practical playbook that keeps customers engaged, even when their product is more want than need.
We dive deep into:
- Why most loyalty programs no longer move the needle
- How BattlBox uses cohort data to identify and fix churn inflection points
- What actually works for increasing LTV without hurting CX
- Why app users churn less (and how they proved it)
- The ROI of handwritten letters, surprise gifts, and physical events
- How BattlBox tracks retention without relying on black-and-white attribution
If you're a DTC operator, subscription founder, or retention leader looking to go beyond the usual playbook, this episode is packed with real-world insights you won’t find in typical marketing talks. Because the brands that win are the ones customers choose to stay with, again and again.
Transcript from video:
0:12 Been with Battlbox now for a little over 10 years. So direct to consumer uh our core business is a is a membership um physical subscription box that goes out uh monthly. Yeah. uh slightly different approach
0:29 towards towards direct to consumer. We're very content driven, very communitydriven, more so than than usual. You know, a business our size typically doesn't have four-time video editors, uh two full-time creators like we do. So, definitely a slightly different flavor than your usual usual
0:48 brand. But yeah, um kind of some some highlevel highlights. We had a Netflix TV show. Um, we sold the business in October 2021, bought the business back in April 2023, and now this is uh, Battlbox 3.0. We're we're
1:08 scaling right now uh, big time on on whatnot with live shopping. So, yeah, it's kind of a high level view of myself in the business. Um, you're you're spot
1:19 on. As much as I would love to argue against you where it falls on the need want scale and and some of our customers might argue argue with us as well that it that it is on the need it it doesn't fall um even close to the need of toilet paper or or toothpaste or or some sort of food um that you need. So so it
1:40 matters. It's um you know the the the focus on content, the focus on community, it has a direct correlation to blended customer acquisition costs. It's it's a it's a slightly different top of funnel where where the top of funnel for the most part is is coming via organic and instead of don't get me
2:02 wrong, you know, the the hundreds of thousands of dollars the the million annually millions annually that that we spend on on meta. Um, you know, there's definitely some prospecting, some type of funnel there, but uh but a vast amount of it is is is more midfunnel and bringing them bringing them into the buying process as opposed to just being pure top of funnel. You know, we it's
2:27 not like a well, let's absolutely get into it. the the reality is a so much of it is we we cared about retention before retention was was as cool as as it is now, right? Like we were we were going through our retention strategies in in 2016, which is which is highly unusual
2:46 for most um DTOC brands. So so much of it is just innate into the way we handle things. Um you know, I I I said that the community aspect matters. So many of our decisions around the community in fact are they're
3:05 retention strategies. We we just don't even necessarily view them as that. So so much of the business is just a retention strategy in general. Um so it's hard to fully isolate it and and say this this is this is our retention strategy. Um, at a at a high level, our our our biggest thing is providing additional value outside of the monthly box. So, you know, it it is a it is the lion share of our business. It's I think
3:36 this year it'll be it'll it'll be probably around 70% of the business. Um, which is, you know, that's a that's a decently sized 8 figure 20 million plus business unit in in Battlebox. So it's a it is it is a big chunk. Now the physical the physical products at the end of the day is is a major aspect of it. but by providing additional value
4:03 throughout the way, whether it's community, whether it's our membersonly Facebook group, whether it's the battlvault where they can get um significantly better deals anywhere else on, you know, maybe about a thousand SKUs, whether it's the surprise and delight element of of their that happens
4:21 after their third month and their ninth month, there there's so so much to kind of peel the onion back on. Um, you know, another thing is we we do these golden tickets every year where the the end result is 10 of our active members coming to an event and getting uh the
4:41 last one got a a I'd say a check but an a for $25,000 um and they they competed for several days. So there's there's a lot I would I would kind of say where where do you want to go first? So, so yeah, so the the membersonly, you know, Facebook group, yeah, it is it is
4:59 a place for for like-minded people to chat and and converse and get to know each other. And at a surface level, that's that's what it is. But as you as you go deeper, there's there's some strategies we we have in there. Um, still not going super deep on them, but some great examples are we're we're constantly in there. I'd say 10 to 12
5:19 Battlbox team members every week at some point are making touches. We're doing um weekly giveaways, monthly giveaways. Um a lot of uh pulling the curtain back. Hey, this is a sample we got a product we're looking at. What do you think? So, so on the enga we're
5:36 we're really engaging um with them probably more so than than a traditional just Facebook group or or Reddit group would. So that's that's one aspect of it. Um if you're looking at other other aspects of it from the community side,
5:53 um the the battlgames specific. So we have battle games every year. It's uh it's it's it's once a year, but we we talk about it throughout the year. So we're building up hype and and discussing what it's going to look like, what it's going to be. um six months leading leading up to it and then the
6:13 the six months after it we're still talking about the great event and everything everything that occurred. So that that does serve as a retention because at some point they don't know when the the the golden tickets are
6:26 going to be placed in active member boxes and that's going to begin it and and when we're teasing it in the sense that it's coming soon it's coming soon but we're not saying when it is because we don't want gamification, right? We want the true real customers to be the
6:39 ones to benefit. We don't want someone coming in last minute and becoming an active member just just so they can win. Um so those are those are two semi- granular. Um additional things are are uh trying to marry virtual with within person. So you know we don't have a
6:59 brickandmortar store. Um you know our customers go to our website and purchase the membership and that's how they get the box. we're not bringing we're not physically bringing it to him, right? So, how do we how do we touch on the
7:11 community and retention aspect in in real life? So, there's a uh besides the battle games things, there's there's other ways we do it. Um a great example, next week there's a event, it's called Georgia Bushcraft. It's here here locally. Um there'll be about 2500
7:29 um attendees each day and it's outdoor gear. It's definitely our our ICP, our demographic, but what we're doing is we're having a um a rucking event where rucking is where, you know, you wear a a
7:42 heavier bag um and and and go a distance. So, we're we're hosting that. Um so, it's a combination of we're inviting all of our all of our existing members that were planning to go to that or want to go to that. It's it's a hang out with us in person. So, it's it's bringing that virtual to physical. Um
8:01 we're a as we look at we just got out of a a board meeting this week trying to do some planning for next year and and part of that is leaning in even harder on the physical side. So we're going to have a few events next year that are similar to a battle rocking but bringing people
8:17 together in person. I know past um past simple things um we were at Shop Talk and we were like okay we're at Shop Talk. We're in Las Vegas. Quick search. We have we have hundreds of customers here in Las Vegas. So, we did a post and after one of the events at Shop Talk, we
8:36 went to an offstrip um bar cuz these are going to be local customers. They probably don't want to go to the strip. And we dropped a post. We did it the day before announcing it. We're coming here. Let us buy you a beer or a you know, a mocktail or whatever you want. Just come hang out. And uh getting getting them to come. It's a pretty cool experience. you
8:54 know, random guys like sees the post and he's like, "Well, you know, this is pretty close to Henderson where I live and, you know, it's 5 minute drive and they come in." So, it's a it's a pretty cool experience kind of taking
9:08 the the trying to figure out more physical stuff because, you know, we all kind of got away with it, got away from it uh in a post pandemic. They have one and classic TE's has one for some reason and Dad Gang Hats has one and like
9:22 that's a lot of it's a lot of communities. I would still start with online just because it it's the the reach is still the reach, right? You're just able to touch so many more eyeballs digitally. So, I would I would
9:35 definitely start online just because of the reach. But, I would quickly have the the inperson as a as a piece of it because an in in-person connection, an in-person conversation is just so much
9:47 so much more valuable, right? It it's it checks the the retention box, right? you come and you hang out with this company you're buying from in person, like, you know, I'm sure you're I I don't have the data, but I I would imagine that if the
10:01 data exists, the LTV just significantly exponentially grows, the the retention grows, the churn reduces, like it's an unlock. I wish I had a black and white answer, but it it's simply looking at looking at cohorts, looking at our monthly churn, our monthly retention, looking at it looking at it
10:20 year-over-year. Um, and of course there's other variables you got to take into consideration. How many did we onboard this month versus that month? So it's it's I wish there was a black and white answer but it for us it's it's as
10:33 simple as you know we have a lot of team members that their their bonus their compensation is based is based on our turn and retention numbers. Um so it's it's really just looking at year-over-year data, month overmonth data and and seeing if we can how many
10:51 variables we can eliminate to try to pinpoint it. But it's it's definitely unfortunately more of an art than a science. I think the the the cardinal rule here is that we're not going to make any change any any shift at the expense of customer experience.
11:10 um which is a pretty I it's not it's not a novel concept but it's kind of how do we ensure that I mean we can say it right then people can still not not do it right Adobe is the worst experience ever we have I don't know I think we have 11 11 seats that we're paying astronomical for
11:33 um like it's it's it's a decent bit over $1,000 a month and it's getting out of it having any interaction it's a horrible experience Um, and I get it. That's why why they're in the news. I think it's a combination of obviously having the rule and and and you know, saying the rule is one thing, executing it is another. I think we've
11:53 been very selective with with hiring. Like we're still a small team, right? I think all in including everything, we're at about 60 people. Um maybe one or maybe two or three under that. Um, I only know this because we we had the board meeting this week where like we had to look at all that. So, it's it's
12:11 friend of mine. Normally, I'll butcher it. I'll say I'll say 45 people and I'll say 65 cuz um it's it's tough to to to know the exact number, but it's uh it's just hiring good people. I think I think hiring and and building it and you know there's a world where we're up to 120
12:31 people, you know, years from now. And I think at that point like you have an you it you have new challenges on how do you you can only get so big and you you see it so much in software right where like they have this great team and great
12:45 culture and as they take that last raise and and blow up and get bigger all of a sudden it all starts to die. Um, so I think it's again I don't think it's uh I wish there was the the the the the silver bullet
13:00 answer, but it's it's hire it's setting rules and making sure that everyone you hire understands like at the end of the day we're here for our customers. Like we don't exist without our customers. We're here for our customers. That's that's the mantra is is give the customers a good experience and everything else kind of takes care of itself. And I know that's great to say
13:23 in generalities, but it's diff it's it's different and difficult to execute. Um, somehow growing to where we've grown, we've been able to execute it. But I but I could see as you add more people, it's a challenge. Um, keeping keeping that culture of of accountability. So, I mean, it it's it I cringe a little bit
13:43 to say of starting that starting that meta that Facebook group. Um and and when we the it it they really do streamline it. They make it very very very easy to do it. You can kind of get a little bit of uh proof of concept with it quickly. Um it's it's easy to link to
14:03 it in your onboarding welcome series. It's easy to talk about on posts. It's it's such a low barrier to entry to do. Um I think I think that's that's what I'm I'm recommending. if you don't have that, you're you're creating it. Um, and I hate that that's the answer, but but I
14:21 think it's the answer because it gives you the infrastructure, the baseline to then build on top of it in other ways. And it's so easy to do such a low barrier to entry. I think you can you can prove prove out the validity of a community for your brand pretty pretty quickly. So, originally we weren't on Facebook. We were on um a bulletin board
14:43 um Reddit style uh it was a private label called Proboards and you could create your own and you you managed it fully um for several years. We we were using that. We we ended up switching switching to Facebook since we've we've had the discussions. There's there's platform there's there's software out there where like that it's
15:06 a it's community software for that. Um, at the end of the day, there's still a there's still a choke point. Um, there's always there's there's always a choke point. I mean, even if you're using a a a private label or or short of truly building your own, um, someone else owns the infrastructure and getting the the the education piece. Um because not only you have to be able to
15:38 build a community and support the community, but you have to get people somewhere and the at least for our demographic um whether they use it or not, they likely have a Facebook account. So you're not having to educate, hey, go to go to this site, download this software. Like there
15:58 there's not much of a there's not a lot of hurdles in the beginning to get them there. Most people in in our demographic, whether they use it or not, have a Facebook account. If we're looking at our content, and we're going to oversimplify there there's there's two types. There's there's top offunnel content, and there's there's retention
16:14 content. Um or or or not top of there's funnel content and there's there's educational and some some check both boxes. So, a lot of the the retention content is product education. um humanizing content where we're we're
16:34 we're whether we're showing our personalities, whether we're showing, you know, how the how the uh the how the sausage is made, if you will. So, you know, content of us packing boxes in the warehouse. Um content of us content of us shooting content. Um content of of the behind the scenes, the business side, going to conferences. I think um yeah, I mean I I would buck it into two. The retention content is really in two categories. It's educational and it's
17:07 it's kind of the behind the scenes and and both of those work in in their own way. Um you know, when people buy from consumer brands and it matters more to your point earlier of where they fall in the need want scale. um if they're the farther from the needs the need side and the closer to the want um a lot of consumers at least currently in the the US and Canada they really want to feel
17:33 some sort of bond connection um relationship with with the the brand they're buying from and the the behind the scenes serves the purpose of humanizing um which which helps form that bond and then the flip side the educational piece
17:51 Like the more education you have on the products you're buying, the the stickier you're going to be on if you truly understand how something works, like you you like it, you like it more. Um so probably yeah, those are the those are the two buckets on the retention content. So the the the Netflix piece to not get too granular was three and a half years in the making. Um we had a we had a production studio, High Noon
18:17 Entertainment. Um they had done Cake Boss um and Fixer Upper. They two two wildly um successful TV shows that led that had businesses attached with them. Um and so so they were the the the people pitching it for us. But like History Channel sit on it sat on it for eight months. Discovery sat on it for eight months before passing. Netflix was was uh just kind of in the purchasing mode. And this is early
18:50 this is 20 early early Yeah. early 2019. Um yeah, so early 2019 is when they uh when they when they made the purchase of of moving forward with us and um yeah, it was it a lot of it was timing on just Netflix was throwing money. I mean, you got to think uh Tiger King came out 6 months 6 months prior to our show. So,
19:19 like they were throwing they were spending money and throwing stuff against the wall. So, a lot of it was timing. And the reason any of it came into fruition at all was just our YouTube channel. um they had seen our YouTube channel, Brandon, who was the
19:33 the the character on most of the content, they really liked him and and they wanted wanted to try to figure out how to take it to a to a normal show on the the battle. So that served more top of that was pure topofunnel. There wasn't much retention on that at all. It was top of funnel and the majority of of the purchasers that came from it, 80 85% maybe were were not
20:03 our ICP were not were not the our ideal customer. They they weren't going to have the thousand LTV. They saw something cool on Netflix and bought a $15 item and they had no intent to ever buy anything again. Um on the the the battle game side, it's uh that the fruition of that we ship a a box every month on the um let's see 12
20:30 uh doing quick math. Oh, so we ship a box every month for whatever reason. And it wasn't the 10 year anniversary, but on our 100th box, um we we were at like I think box 94 and our community started like chit chatting like what are they
20:48 going to do for the 100th box? They're going to do I bet they're going to do something special. They're going to like we hadn't really thought of it, but all of a sudden they're like there's these unrealistic expectations that we need to do something for it. So, we were at we were in Vegas and there was a booth that uh was drive tanks where you can go into
21:11 um rural Texas and and get in World War II tanks and shoot them. And um out of all people to go to the booth and and and throw it send it over to me, our CFO was like, "This would this be cool for content?" And I was like, "Yeah, it's probably really really expensive though." Um, but then from that conversation stemmed to let's fly uh five customers out and give them a shot and it was a same as a hole in one uh
21:43 halftime uh fullcourt or half court shot where they win a car kind of contest. Um they're insurance policies which I didn't know and we did the same thing. We we met with an insurance company, broke down the velocity, speed, weight of the ammunition in the tank, how far the target was, size of the target, and we wrote an insurance policy. We we we we paid the the for the 100k I think it I think for five people to shoot the
22:14 tank. I think the policy cost us like $20,000. And we at that point, we wanted them to hit it cuz it's just insurance. like we want you data cuz we want you to get 100. We've already paid the 20 to make it in existence. Um it was a great event. Uh no one hit the target. So no one won. So it's very antilimatic. We
22:37 flew these five customers out to meet us in Texas, took a bus, uh coach bus with 50 people to go out two hours in a to Yaldi, Texas to do this and no one won. And so everything it checked every box. It was so much fun. There was community vibe. There were our vendors, our sponsors, our B2B vendors. Everybody was there. It was this great experience, but the ending sucked. So, we were like,
23:03 "Okay, well, we want to do this again. This is going to be great content. We put this out." But like, someone has to win. Like, it's not an insurance policy. Like, someone needs to win some kind of meaningful money. So, we said, "Okay, well, we're going to do next year we're going to do battle games and we'll do the same thing. we'll we'll bring 10
23:20 customers out and we'll come up with a few rounds of competition and and someone will actually win the money. So the next year we did it to win the money and um then the next year we got it got bigger and and more people and an extra day and now we're just building building on that and season 3 will be even larger
23:40 than the last one. So, so our our onboarding series um on the emails SMS because they work in conjunction um side of the house and we also have a a a mobile app that allows us to make touches to um for both iOS and Android. So, the three of them kind of work together. Um the the onboarding series,
24:02 so we obviously have a welcome series when someone opts into our newsletter, but we have a welcome series when someone opts into membership. And it's a it's a flow that that lasts um I think 5 and 1/2 months in total. And it's a it's a slow drip. There's other emails you're going to get in between for for other stuff, but it's it's really ensuring that we explain to them all of the additional value, all of the additional things they receive, the the education
24:31 piece. So when we drop a video for every product, we ever include the box. So part of that is letting them know that the new video is out. Um so it's uh it's just a constant educational piece. Um it ensures that the majority of emails they receive after becoming a member are not super salesy. We're not selling anything
24:51 at this point. Um we we have a set probably in that series we have uh I think three or four different articles that are pure educational um that we share with them. um just it's all about value and education. Um it's it's gotten longer and longer and longer as we've
25:11 been doing this because we see more more ways to to bring value. Um so that's at at a at a simplistic piece. It's a the the customer on onboard flow is is long um but is spread over a lot of time and it's not salesy. There's there's no call to action any of it on on the sales
25:31 side. Um, we're simply just trying to build build the relationship by providing value. Um, to your point on on on something that we that we do have in our our email series flow is that um, sorry, one second. Hey. Okay. You doing your mom's? Okay. All right. Love you guys. Sorry, my wife just brought my son in and he's like waving at me off off camera. Um, so
26:02 this is this is part of it part of a email. It's a different email flows, not the welcome series, but you and I were chatting before. You look at um, you know, our our subscription business and and you look at the waterfall of cohorts and the month they they churn out and,
26:19 you know, it's a I come in in Octo, you know, let's say we bring in 2,000 new members in in the month of October. You watch those 2,000 and you know unfortunately next month there's only going to be 1,900 of them and the month after that 1,800 and eventually it goes down to a pretty minimal um horrible number. So but it it for the most part it's a very very even even flow and we saw these two
26:47 anomalies on there. saw that between their third and fourth month with us that there was a just a slight bigger bigger drop than usual, which makes sense. They at that point they've spent roughly on average $600 with us. Um, not a considerable amount. They've they've gotten a few of the products. They're probably in this interesting decision-making process of like, how long am I going to pay $200 a month? And then we saw a very similar between the
27:15 9th and the 10th where there was these two drops. So, we said, "Okay, well, we're we're going to email them and we're going to email them proactively, um, when they hit this point, right before billing, and we're just going to say, hey, you know, thank you for for for trusting us for the the few months you have. Um, we do see that you have an upcoming renewal. We've just taken $20 off of it. You don't have to do
27:39 anything. We're just we're just letting you know um because we we appre appreciate your business." And what we saw is when we did that um it completely normalized and it it didn't have that dip anymore. Um and then we actually did the 3mon 3 to four month first. Um and then we quickly did the same for the the 9 to 10 and saw saw the same thing. So
28:02 it was a it was a little bit of a um just looking at the data and saying okay why is this why is this different? Because it shouldn't be different right? You should have a pretty normalization flow. Um, right. It should absolutely be consistent, but I but I guarantee you anybody with any sort of reoccurring
28:19 billing, um, there's probably inconsistencies. And when you have that inconsistency, that's like a easy lift of how do you fix it, right? Because it should be normalized. So, at its core, the app the app accomplishes two things. One, it it makes it super easy um to to manage their account, right? you know, as much as as much as it pains us, someone wants to cancel, cancelling shouldn't be difficult. If if someone
28:44 needs to skip a month because they don't want to pay $200 and, you know, they need to focus their finances elsewhere, it should be it should be fairly simple. Um, if if they left us and they want to come back, should also be very, very easy. Open up the app, click reactivate, confirm, and and you're good. Um, so at
29:03 its core, that's that is a piece is is just easy account management. Um the other side is it allows us just another touch point. Um the cool stuff with mobile technology is um and I guess you you can do this also with email too is you can you can pick for it to go at certain times based on um the likelihood of them it being the right time to send where they are going to engage with it. they are going to open it um on so so
29:31 that gives us a couple couple options here. But it's uh there's definitely some excitement when you know if you're spending $200 a month, there's probably a level of excitement when you know that you're that your your box is on the way or that your box has been delivered and you're at work. So we we allow the the app to be another touch point in addition to email because people's email boxes get a little crowded. Um, I mean,
29:55 I think, yeah, like I but everybody feels this, right? Even if you're not in like a traditional B2B or or dealing with businesses, like our email boxes are are are just horrible with the everybody gets hundreds of emails a day. Um, so it's it's a lot of a lot of noise. So, this allows the customers that want it, that want
30:20 it, and and typically they're going to be your high LTV customers that that want to feel part of the community, that want the app. It allows another touch point, right? They don't have to see that they have uh 52 new emails and and not even click it. They have the the line item from Battlebox saying, "Hey, your box was delivered today." Um, in
30:39 that same in that same vein, uh, when so we're very strategic with how the boxes are shipped each month, it's a drop model where we go because our main facilities in Georgia, we go west to east so everybody kind of gets it around the same day or two and then we immediately the day that the first boxes
30:57 are being delivered, we drop our video. Um, and the video is a a long form 35 minutes on average complete review of the box. Um, some customers want to see it beforehand. Some customers want to watch it as they're going through the box. Um, there there's a couple different preferred behaviors with it, but um, selfishly, it also allows us to control a narrative, right? Like if if this item if this if this pen just seems
31:27 like a normal pen, um, you don't want customers to not have all the information, right? The pen also you can unscrew this and do that and they might miss that. So, it allows us to to educate. Um, and education is is key.
31:40 So, it's another touch, right? So, we're able to shoot the video out automatically, letting them know the new YouTube video dropped, which builds some excitement, but also allows us to further educate, which which we know is is a retention effort. you know, while we were early with with it going 6 years ago, we we probably, you know, part of that was luck that we
32:05 thought we wanted to do it and we probably didn't didn't track it the the way we probably should have. Um, so, so from then, from the jump, um, it was just all about it was all about engagement. How many how many how many opens, how many successful sends, how many opens. Um and and that that was honestly the big big piece. Um since we we we also um we do tie uh users and we can we separate those users into a different cohort just to see if they are truly our higher performing LTV
32:41 customers and do they do they stick around more and they they do on both sides which isn't rocket science. It would make sense that that would be the case. Um, but then we also, um, we do track revenue associated associated with the touches. Um, but you know, as you asked me that question, I feel like we
32:58 could probably do a much better job and and there's probably more data to be tracked that we're not tracking. So, we we we this uh earlier this month, we we did roll out um so we have the battlvault, which is the exclusive, you know, private shopping area for our members.
33:16 We did bring that we did bring that into the app. Um, which was not easy, but we knew we we had to bring it there because now, you know, we we want them on the app. We want them doing their we've we've toyed around with exclusive content previously, but um that didn't
33:33 move the needle at all and didn't seem to really resonate well enough to justify continued use of it. So, we discontinued that. Um, so Battle Vault is really the only only major thing we've added to it. we're we're a little selective. So, you know, in order for a a product to go into the into a box, um
33:53 it has to hit fit this certain criteria, right? Price point has to be between this and this. It has to then layer on these tiers. So, there's there's often times products both on the lower cost side and then the way a lot of products that are just they'll never be in the box because the economics don't allow us
34:09 to put put it in there. Um, so on the higher end, a lot of the higherend stuff is the opportunity for us to sell it. We do put it on our site. Um, and if it's it's the normal retail price if they are a member, it does it does discount it. Um, I'm sure we lose some some of the larger sales because of it. the thought
34:32 the thought process is, you know, why why do people um why do people pay the the the monthly for like Costco and it it's it's they get to participate in the buying power and and that's that's the value. Now, we don't charge for the access. We we one day will um and one day it'll be an independent offering. Um, but the the hope is that these are things they are likely going to buy anyway, we
35:04 think, for this type of customer. So, if we can save them two over $200 a month in what they would have paid anyway, um, they just paid for their membership. So, like we might send out this box and you might get it and you're going through and you're man like I just don't see, you know, this wasn't a good box.
35:29 Battlbox really effed this one up. I I'm not happy that I paid $200 for it. But I did save $180 this month on stuff I was buying anyway because of the battlvault. So, like I'm still getting a great deal. So, I'm not I'm not going to cancel my my membership because yeah, I'm saving money here and we might
35:52 have missed out on that revenue. Um, that's but that's okay because we've we've retained this customer by providing additional value outside the box. So, it's not it's not a giant profit center for us. The the margins we decide to run in the battle vault are very insignificant. Um, it's not a it's it's not to be a profit center. It's literally 100% a retention tool. Um, at
36:17 that that that is at its core that is all that is all it is. It's not to not to oversimplify it, but you know, we we're constantly every every Friday we get a we get this report and and we're tracking what our our retention is for for the week, for the month, how it compares to the the previous week, how
36:38 it compares to the previous month, how it compares to the the year-over-year month. Um, and it's with certainty. There's other variables outside our control that are that are in the mix, right? But that's still our northstar is we have to get we have to get turned down. We churn turn is at
36:56 this and we need to get it down here. So we're going to keep providing value and it's it's tough but in the same level the you know uh we we know what an average member we know what the LTV is, right? We know that that they're going to spend over $1,000 with us. And you know, you
37:17 don't have to be, don't get me wrong, we're a business and we want to make profit, but um we don't have to be greedy with it. We can we can go more volume game and and I think if you provide that that experience is but but you have a great point like it's tough for us to measure it exactly. Um it's really difficult. We're having to go very general. Um, you know how uh you the agencies, marketing agencies love for you to look at blended CAC. Oh yeah, you know, C's $700 on Meta, but like you
37:49 know your blended CAC's only 120. Um, so and I hate when that's done. I accept it now, but it's it's almost the same approach, right? We're just looking at what what the blended retention is, what the blended churn is by consistently trying to do the right thing. And it's a balance, right? Like, don't get me
38:08 wrong, we've we've had ideas that that are possibly good, but just don't make sense economically. And it's it's it's definitely a a little bit of an art to say, "Okay, well, um, we can't do this one." Uh, so it's it's it's executing ones that we have a just a high level of confidence about, and I don't think we get them all
38:32 right. We we're currently still doing it. Um, and it's an unpopular opinion. Uh, so we have a program called BattlBucks. So, it's it's not a novel concept. Everybody every D brand has a loyalty program, right? Get these points or dollars or whatever it is. Um, we have it. We've had it for we've had Battle Bucks for probably like eight years, seven years
38:58 at this seven years at this point. Um, and we rolled it out as soon as we went over to Shopify and it's gone through three different providers. Um, I don't think it makes a difference. I don't think points and and battlbucks or or or shaving dollars or whatever you want to call it, like depending on the brand, I
39:23 don't think it moves the needle like it used to. it just it's it becomes almost almost normalized and it's it's expensive to run that from a software perspective. We have like exclusive items that we that we procure for it. I think it's a lost lost leader. um at some point we're just going to probably
39:44 end it and no one will care which is sad because it mattered to we thought it mattered for so long and it might have mattered more you know several years ago but I think I don't think it it's it's
39:56 as much of a hot button to consumers as it as it used to be. I think it's going to be that much more difficult. I think it's that the beauty of the loyalty program is that it almost was oneizefits-all, right? We might call it
40:08 something different, but like the mechanics of it, we're all the same um across all all brands. And I think yeah, I think because to your point, everybody does it now. It if everybody does it, it's not it's not a thing. Um so what it what it looks like, I have no idea. I would I would challenge people that are
40:26 thinking about it. You know, there's probably some real software hardware costs to maintain maintain them. Um there's there's obviously other costs associated with it too from a resource perspective, from a possibly exclusive products or sourcing perspective. I would say take that money and and put it towards some sort sort of experience or
40:47 something something in person or or a surprise and delight. Um I would I would say that's that's the answer. If you're if you're looking for something surprise and delight, take that money and and do
41:00 something for uh your customers or a select few. Um you know, we send every year we stack rank our top 500 customers that are active. Um I'm not sure we measure it correctly. We measure it from active and total revenue spent. You could probably argue that maybe we shouldn't just be revenue. Maybe there should be some other other variables,
41:24 but we stack rank them all. We all send them a physical a physical gift. Last year we sent um this just a a engraved battlbox VIP knife and a a handwritten letter from us. So like little things like that I'd re that's going to get you so much more value from a retention perspective cuz I'd say no one's doing
41:44 people are doing it but the people that do it you remember them. But it it with with certainty it's you know people so many so much of buying decisions when you're buying from brands you're you're doing a little bit of internet research
41:57 soothing thing sometimes. Um I did it I wanted some slip-on shoes. Um, and there were so many options and I went down this rabbit hole. But I think that's a that's a lot of times for certain purchases that's the consumer behavior, right? Whether you're asking Chad GBT or you're googling like you're doing a little bit of research and the only people that put reviews are the people that are really
42:22 mad at you or really really happy. And I don't think having having the battlbucks reward system makes anybody really really happy, right? So getting a a whether it's a knife or just a gift from from a company that that was unexpected, I mean that's memorable. You remember that. Um it's a story. It it it definitely shoves you into the bucket of
42:51 like very very happy and likely to give a review. And if you're likely to get a review, you're probably six times more likely to stick around, which means you're you're the retention on that person is is amazing. And the LTB is
43:03 going to be great. So yeah, that's the that's that's what I would do. I would take the money, shut down your loyalty program, and put that towards surprise and delighting your customers with something like this impromptu one we came up with of just like kill your loyalty program and invest in surprise and loyalty companies will will evolve,
43:22 right? there. While we while you did say that um you know what I described was very manual, these loyalty programs are identifying that they're going to know like there should be a way to do that, right? And probably through some automation you can, right?